Formula Two Discussion

Discussion in 'ISI cars and tracks' started by HumanZob, May 20, 2013.

  1. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I've driven my fair share of real-life open wheelers, (and a high-HP prototype style car), I know a guy who was a race winner in Star Mazda (in a very competitive season in the mid to late 2000s) that I've had discussions with and has tried sims at my place, he also had multiple tests in Forumula Atlantic.

    The fact you make a statement like "You want to see me leaning on the rear in mid corner? Why would I drive like that?" shows just how much (or little) you know. Leaning on the rear is what you do. You lean on the rear to plant the rear-end down in order to transfer weight, and therefore grip, to the rear. This is basic race car technique and vehicle dynamics 101. The fact that you claim that "Only someone who doesn't know what they're doing would even think that they could get away with that in such a car" actually shows that you're the one who's being ludicrous, and "obtuse", and just clearly plain-clueless on these matters since it's that very technique that you're supposed to use, yet you claim the complete opposite and say that only people who don't know what they're doing would do that.

    For you to say something so massively flawed - like what you said about how ridiculous leaning on the rear of a WSR3.5 is, when that is basic race car technique and vehicle dynamics 101 - clearly shows how I'll-informed you are about this, or maybe it's just rFactor 2 fanboyism blinding you.

    About general FFB and physics, oh god, I'm not even going to get into that with you, let's just stick to the WSR3.5.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2014
  2. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Hi Paul, I agree regarding the limitation of the hardware. I know it generates for example the internal friction, mechanically and electrically and that it does not run internally without resistance, generates housing resonances, vibrations, that it twists to a part, provides limited torque, that there exists electronic distortion something like a lag,.......etc, and that it could be a bit too slow here and there but I think it is mainly due to the use of various signals which may not match or else are too strong or too weak, unbalanced, noisy or even fight each other in some cases,...........is why the first impression or the second lasting impression remains, especially with this hardware, and whether it is generated by the physics because something is not optimal or it just is the hardware, I can not say exactly, but that it should be better in standard for this hardware i think we can agree, even in rf2 the standard was better in the past.

    The next is the limitation of user options and the very limited opportunities for optimization.

    When I speak of different signals as example, it is sometimes better to filter out or balance the effects of the tire tread, so that the spring force dominates and is free of resistors as the friction simulation or other effects of the patch which can be distracting if these do not work properly and natural in harmony with the rest of the forces generated at the tire and by the kinematic.

    I did a test some time ago with the Mazda 787 with high level steering torque sensibility, optimized multiplier and some filter, and the result was phenomenal. I don't know if that would still work, but I was surprised how fast the T500RS could be, and I could feel the most important feedback for the optimal control of the vehicle, such as slip and the sense of load change/weight shift and could even the steering wheel let go for self alignment, and it matched the car behaviour.

    This isn't possible with the standard setup, rather the contrary, you have to fight the stering wheel and hold it back by yourself in same cases, apart from the erratic, unbalanced effects, jolts and what all happens on the toy steering wheel, which than makes the whole experience toy like.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2014
  3. TechAde

    TechAde Registered

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    That's exactly as I'd expect, the zero-speed multiplier is taking effect at zero speed and removing the oscillations caused by having such a high FFB multiplier.
     
  4. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Paul, I was just going on about the FR3.5 (and some other general seeming pMotor issues) it was you who began with the insults in your 2nd last post. Anyways it's just a forum thread, I'm sure if we were discussing this stuff on voice chat, or over a beer, things would come out a lot different. Heated arguments/discussions/debates tend to come off aggressive and rude when it's all done through text. Having said that, I do apologize for my rF2-fanboy comment, but I didn't mean it as an insult, I honestly think sometimes people can let their love of a game affect their judgement of it, heck, i'm probably guilty of it myself.

    Leaning on the rear just means generally pushing it hard, asking lot out of it, with lots of weight transfer on it. With the FR3.5 I feel it can hardly be leaned on, you have to walk on eggshells while leaning on it during corner load, and if you do get it sideways it's a weird, skittish, snap. I've corrected snap spins in many sim cars and some real-life race cars before. I'm not saying that the FR3.5 should never snap-out (any car can snap out, let alone these types of cars), that's not the problem. It's the way in which it snaps out. The general physics of the oversteer moment are wonky at best. Also, the physics before you get to the power-oversteer moment are extremely odd. I remember at Hockenheim, at the tight left hairpin in the stadium section, the car would go into some super unatural, "death spin", at the exit of the turn, lap after lap. And this was while i was slowly accelerating from 20-ish % throttle, gently and smoothly to probably not even 50-%. It was as if the car gained 6000 HP of torque at low revs and only 50% throttle the instant there was even the absolute tiniest amount of wheelspin. Just completely gimped.

    Can you please send me a setup? I would love to try you're own personal setup, and combined with your FFB settings. In fact, if you have Steam, you and anyone else here are more than welcome to add me my user name is "SpinDoctor" (without the quotes). Would love to be able to chat, or even go online together while connected through Steam's chat or something. Would be great.
     
  5. TechAde

    TechAde Registered

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    I think you're misunderstanding how the zero-speed multiplier works.

    It's not 'on or off', it's a multiplier.

    At 0.0 it means you'll get no FFB at all if you're not moving (i.e. at zero speed). At 1.0 you'll get full FFB when not moving. At 0.5 you'll get 50% FFB when not moving. Etc. Etc.
     
  6. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    That even makes it more necessary to have more options for fine tuning it. It would be nice to have some advanced ffb options in an underlying menue or something else, to be able to have an influence on the responding qualities of the given signals, such as to have an option for the responding charecteristic of the steering column and the rate of increase of the torque.

    This would be offer the possibility to simulate the steering box/transmission linearity manually, what at least should be build in, which i don't know if the steering box/transmission ratio is build in the software, but even if it would be still nice to balance it out for the hardware and the perception of the increasing rate of forces, because the steering transmission is mostly non linear, which means that there shouldn't be the same speed of low-end torque, midrange and max torque on the whole bandwidth of the steering box/transmission.

    I also have the feeling the steering center area is responding to fast in most cases and the most of the cars, which not only leads to oscillation, it also leads to erratic behaviour of other forces, such as bumps, lateral tire forces and load changes. It is to linear and not progressive enough, as it feels.

    Is also a reason for why i don't think the 100% controler linearity approach works as it should or as it is intended to, as well as i think the steering min torque feature is nonsense in some cases, such as for the T500Rs. I even would like to have the opposite feature into the negative area of the scale, to give the motor a minimal resting zone. I tryed negative values in the controller file but that doesn't have an impact on the response charecteristic to the incoming forces.

    Oh and i don't mean the steering rate which is at 100% all the time, i mean something similar for the response charecteristic of the incoming forces whithout to need to change the general controler linearity, and maybe some fine tuning options for other effects.


    That unfortunately is a ersatz for vertical weight force. I would like to know how the weight force is simulated at step speed or low speed without downforce effects. I always had the feeling this is an general problem which may has an negative impact on the drivng behaviour under low speed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2014
  7. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Thanks, I got stuck playing on the F3 Rookies server all night, AGAIN, lol. So I will check this out later today/tonight? :)
     
  8. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Ok. I know you say the T500RS control panel settings dont matter, but i'd like to use your exact settings just in case. You use 100 on everything, including damper, spring, and overall power, correct?
     
  9. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Great, thanks. So I should try the controller file FFB settings from post #198, correct?
     
  10. cosimo

    cosimo Registered

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    Paul, are the steering resistance settings correct (0 and 0 instead of 1 and 0.06)?
     
  11. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Hi Paul, thank you for the time you take to reply. First i would like to say this and i think you know that i'm talking about the standard out of the box thing in connection with the hardware we use. I'm not saying the physic is off all over the place or something is wrong, maybe it is not optimal and or for the given conditions but not that there is something totally off.

    We agree that the hardware is not perfect, we agree that the out of the box settings are not optimal, but where we are not sure is if it is just because of the hardware or how the ffb works, but that shouldn't matter first.

    The thing is why you are going by the low controler linearity you think ? Because it seems that the increasing rate of the torque directly on the steering column is not optimal ( maybe in connection with the hardware ) or there is no steering box coded which would influence this because of the transmission ratio.

    What i was saying is that it would help to have a option to adjust the increasing rate of the incoming torque at the steering column without to change the controler linearity, because as i understood this and how Dr1pper explained this to me, that feature is just that the controler reacts linear to incoming forces, but when you change that the controler no longer reacts linear over the full bandwidth, which may is not that optimal.

    Of course it seems to be the only one way to do what the transmssion/steering box should do for you, but i think it would be better to leave the controler linearity at the optimal value, and to do that with a feature which would let you adjust the increasing rate of the torque directly at the steering column.

    This way you wouldn't change the overall reaction time and increasing rate of the controler, but the income from the steering arm forces at the steering column, which as already said should do the steering box/transmission for you.

    Maybe it is just how the car ffb is balanced, or there is no steering box simulated and or not working optimal in connection with the standard hardware.

    edit:

    about the low speed feeling. As it seems to me there is no real static weight simulation, otherwise you would feel resistance on the steering wheel while standing without the zero speed multi, but you don't, or why or for what that feature is needed when the physic would simulate static weight. If all the forces generated by the physic are transmitted by the ffb, you should have the resistance with increasing or lowering the ffb multi already, and there would be no need for a zero speed multi, because the vertical load on the wheels should be there already.

    This seems or could influence low speed driving behavior in some cases where no downforce is applying as well, no matter if you feel anything on your steering wheel, which just seems to have to do with the contact the tires have with the ground, but that doesn't mean the drag on the wheels is correct at low speed.
     
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  12. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Of course Paul but if you understannd that the linearity feature, which seems to be there just to ensure that the controler reacts and works linear over the whole bandwidth to incoming forces, than the need to adjusting the outcome and incomng torque to the controler by the controler linearity wouldn't be necessary by a user if it was simulated right by the steering box and transmission ratio of it, but yet you still need to adjust the linearity for your specific controler means nothing else than the income is incorrect in it's increasing rate of torque, otherwise it would match basically to every controler, no matter of it's cababilitys of overall torque and detail, transmitted to the driver.

    Adjusting the linearity of the controler in the json file shouldn't be the key to replace the steering system at all, that the steering box should do for you, and it doesn't as it seems, leave aside a standard user never would be able to understand what you where doing there, and why you where doing it, sure not because the sim is working perfect but his controler is useless for it.

    I don't agree on this with you homie, and i also don't believe the zero speed multi is a gimmick, it just is a cheap way to simulate static force while standing still, and i guess the static weight is a general problem in the sim, and why low speed physic was always a existing problem.
     
  13. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Think about your controler as a direct connection, like a mechanical direct connection, forget about the controler linearity as it wasn't there. Why you would need to adjust the mechanics if the income was correct ? Your controler is taking the role of the steering box and or compensating the wrong increasing torque rate.
     
  14. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Now you get it, but you try to excuse the fault of the software by the hardware limitation in general. Sorry Paul but the basic work isn't done right here, no matter what output capabilitys your end device has, it's wrong, the software doesn't controles the the torque increasing rate right.
     
  15. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    I get it, but you seem to missunderstood what am i trying to say. You shouldn't need to adjust the controler linearity, but just the car multi if at all to ensure it doesn't kills your toy wheel, but not to balance the torque characteristic by manipulating the linearity of the controler. That the steering box and sim should do for you, you as the end user should only need to adjust the overall strength.
     
  16. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    I don't know what to say anymore Paul, sorry, i tought we the little user with there toy wheels would may the target group for this sim game, if i was mistaken, i'm sorry, but at least the software doesn't works out of the box for my lovely toy wheel. No i don't own a super steering wheel but i also doubt it would work without that you have to need to adjust the same thing you do with your toy wheel, because as i said already, to me the torque charecteristic is off, maybe because there is no real steering box simulation or whatever, but i'm also able to feel as you, after more than twenty years in the car biz and as a master of technicians i guess i'm somewhat able to rate what i perceive. In peace homie.
     
  17. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    No sorry i don't know anything, it seems i just have the wrong hardware for this sim game, what leaves me the only one choice, to leave it aside because it doesn't works for me until ISI awakes, and i was wrong to think that this software is for us. Yes as i perceive it, the torque charecteristic is off in my opinion, no matter what the hardware is able to reproduce, it even starts wrong at the zero point, otherwise you wouldn't manipulate the linearity of your controler, but would feel a real car with the standard settings, maybe much lighter than one but you would feel at home, but you don't because the torque charecteristic is not optimal. So in your logic rf2 seems perfect while you can't prove it as well as i can't it isn't. We both have our own opinion, and may perceive the things a bit different, but me is looking at it from a technical point of view, and for me it should be possible to controle the torque charecteristic right when the simulation would do the job right, maybe to simulate a steering box. Yes this toys wan't be able to reproduce a real steering force and speed, but they are able to reproduce the torque increasing rate, with a lower ratio, so that it feels natural and not erratic, as it is out of the box.
     
  18. Slamfunk3

    Slamfunk3 Registered

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    @Paul Loatman

    Just wanted to say a big thanks for sharing your controller settings. My t500 has never felt better or more predictable
     
  19. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    For sure Paul, thanks for sharing. I'll save those settings for when I buy that wheel in a few months time. :)
     
  20. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    How you come to the conclusion your real life experience where more a fact than my perception of things which are based on real life experience as well Paul. You know that i said never i know exactly how car x should feel or is in real life but you also know that i have driven many different cars, not at least was a mechanic myself for many years, left aside the graduation of a master, and that i'm more than twenty years involved with this stuff. Of course that shouldn't mean something to you and it is up to you, how believable my opinion for you is, but you tyring to force that your opinion count's more, while you can't prove that your perception of things is more correct than my perception, while we both are basing our opinion just on personal real life experience of car steering wheel feeling. I also never called anybody an idiot, i just tryed to say what could help to improve the balance in my opinion, and it wasn't more than to think a feature which let you controle torque increasing rate, without to need to manipulate the controler linearity.

    Hey Paul, it is my birthday today and i really have no passion to getting upset or destroying my mood, and i hope you don't get me wrong, even if my choice of words may sound a bit rough to you, it isn't meant that way, it is just my inability to let you feel my emotion in words, the more in this language. So apologies if i did something wrong, it wasn't my intention, but please respect my opinion if you can, i respect your's as well, even if we as it seems are not of the same opinion.

    Cheers !
     

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