Formula E

Discussion in 'Real Racing Discussion' started by redapg, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    B-but, they are...

    I don't mind change at all but not all evolution is awesome just because its evolution, as a fan there's certain characteristics one likes, and others not, simple as that.
    To me its funny that once someone doesn't like a change it automatically categorizes them as change-haters. preferences can be without labels you'know, its all good :p
     
  2. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead Staff Member

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    For me racing it's like music or art in general; at the time someone has to explain you how it works, how to understand it, how to take it, how to feel it...then yeah, it's going to be boring. :D
     
  3. Natureboy

    Natureboy Registered

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    Should give it another chance, that track was terribly boring and made for a poor race. The design of the car is a bit odd with large sidepods, wings and then grooved street tires - meh. I would prefer to see it without the wings and a battery large enough to inspire a sprint race, but whatever. They just really need to design new uprights so they don't break and have wheels coming apart so easily. With a good fast flowing track it could make a good race, unless they are still really going to be limited on power use, then forget it.
     
  4. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    I think the biggest killer so far is that the 1st and 2nd race are 70 days apart? How are people supposed to stay tuned up when they put more than two months in between races...
     
  5. Brack Jabham

    Brack Jabham Registered

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    Hi Mike,

    You probably realise this, but it was probably necessary in the first season for everyone to work out what they needed to fix for the next race. I imagine it won't always be this way
     
  6. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    I guess you have a point, especially for Heidfeld and Prost :mad:
    I am sure the 2nd season is going to kick butt
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2014
  7. Ricklandia

    Ricklandia Registered

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    A bit late to this thread, but I must say I like Formula E. Sure, they're not the loudest or fastest cars racing, but they are most definitely pressing the boundaries technology wise. And don't fool yourself, they are quick. For the purists out there turning up their noses at it, look at F1 today and the electric power integrated into the engine package. Formula E is just a logical extension of this and allows manufacturers to push it even further. The list of owners/drivers is like a who's who of open wheel racing, something totally unexpected [to me at least] but definite proof that we're seeing these cars driven to their limits [and some damn fun racing]. Lastly, the 2015 season shows even more promise with the teams being allowed to be more creative with their own designs [within the rules of course].
    Wait... Whaaa? Their coming to Miami! Sweet! Okay, not the greatest circuit design but it's right here in me back yard [so to speak]. Will definitely have to get out so I can at least offer up a first hand opinion.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2014
  8. hexagramme

    hexagramme Member

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    I'm a huge fan already. The last race was epic stuff.
     
  9. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    So far the consistency of totally smashing some car is 100% :-D
     
  10. NobbyRacing2012

    NobbyRacing2012 Registered

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    would love to see this in rF2 ... it would be awesome ...
     
  11. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    i personally think that it would not be any more fun than f.e R3.5 but rF2 doesnt have necessary features implemented anyway as far as i know. f.e. recharging and so on
     
  12. FLV37

    FLV37 Registered

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    They could change the batteries :eek:
     
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  13. redapg

    redapg Registered

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    They could use a trailer for more batteries. :D
     
  14. hmaia

    hmaia Registered

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    I might risk be called "purist", but if F1 goes this way, I am bailing out. As a mechanical engineer, I have always been in favor of evolution. I think street electric cars can be a great bonus to the world, if they ever come up with a decent set of batteries and how to dispose of them when they go bad or the car is recycled.

    As far as lack of evolution in Grand Prix engines, in the 50's, the specific power output of a F1 engine was 100 bhp/liter. In the 80"s, the turbo era, it was 750 bhp/liter. The end result is that FIA banned them.
    Mid 2000's piston acceleration was 10,000+ g's, with force imposed in the crankpins reaching 6000 kg!
    FIA has been hamstringing engine designers since 1990, blocking exotic materials, high revving engines and any other development engineers dreamed about.

    Yet when you look at the power plant package of the 2014 cars, it is a marvel of engineering. Even with all restrictions, including engine development during the duration of the current regulations, engineers came up with something extraordinary in the time they were given.

    I hate their sound though; they sound like Diesels with a bad cold, and together with the current stupidity prevalent among the F1 suits, F1 has been gradually chocking to death. Just look at the grandstands and TV audience ratings.

    It has been said here ICU's have poor fuel efficiency. Modern street cars with gasoline direct injection have reached 35%, and street TDI Diesels 50% fuel efficiency, so the figure of 30% given here is way off the mark.

    Again, even f I may be called sound hysterical, I think that is how a Grand Prix car should sound:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SoZiTxdQyw
     
  15. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    your efficency figures, is that energy at the end of crank shaft or at the end of axle?

    Motors are more effective not only thanks to their very concept of recreating electric energy into kinetic energy (therefore one form of energy directly into another, no other medium to store the energy - no leftovers like CO and CO2) But also thanks to margingly less moving parts involved in the drive train. Dont look at F1 for an example as to what i mean, look at La Ferrari or 918, they have independent motors bolted directly to the wheels, there is no drive shaft, no differencial, only axles. Instead of countless angular joints you have 2 per wheel. Also the fuel efficiency of turbo engines are obviously massively larger since the biggest waste of energy in ICU is temprature of which around 50+% goes away with exhaust gases, the rest is get rid of via radiators.
     
  16. hmaia

    hmaia Registered

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    Brake thermal efficiency, measured at the end of the crankshaft. Mazda is claiming very high thermal efficiency for their Skyactiv technology, I believe 15% higher than other modern engines.
     
  17. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    Crankshaft, there you go, but that is the ICU only, without the rest of the drivetrain that is neccessary for ICUs, not so much for electric motors
     
  18. hmaia

    hmaia Registered

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    The point I am trying to make is that, if the power plant development were left unrestrained in the last 30+ years, efficiency levels would be much higher than what we have today. Racing engine engineers are some of the most creative engineers in the profession. An example was the introduction of pneumatic control of valves, which eliminated the restriction imposed on engines by valve spring float. Ceramic pistons, when first introduced, would last one hour, today they are good for 3000 km.

    I am not contending that they could be as efficient as a high performance electric motor. But if you look at the power plant of Formula E cars, they have a 5-speed transmission that will reduce overall efficiency since they do not match the mechanical efficiency of a F1 transmission.

    By the way, La Ferrari does not use independent electric motors directly bolted to the wheels. It has one electric motor bolted to rear of the gearbox, and power (engine + electric motor) is applied through rear drive shafts.

    The 918 uses the same concept as La Ferrari for the rear wheels, but the electric motor is located between gas engine and transmission. The front electric motor is connected though drive shafts to the front wheels. I believe the electric motor is a high RPM, and there is probably some reduction gearing between motor and wheels.

    I don't expect to see individual electric motors mounted to each wheel, as the Caterpillar MT4400D AC does. Interestingly, the Cat 993F, their highest payload truck, uses a 7-speed planetary transmission coupled to the rear axle.

    Anyway, this could be extended ad nauseam .
     
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  19. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    i love that you know what you are talking about. For sure the restrictions are slowing and preventing development, but racing isnt the only place where it happends, Look at Koenigsegg, in my opinion one of the most technology driven car maker in terms of improving what we already have and making it epic. Their power units have fantastic HP to Volume of diplacement ratio etc. The only production car with carbon fibre rims, even F1 uses magnesium for their rims. So restricting racing unquestionably is a massive factor in terms of ICU development, but its not elimination.

    The steps in evolution of ICU will now be smaller and smaller and there will be no breakthru anymore since all sorts of companies use very detailed science to get the most of what they are doing, from fuel to tyres. In my eyes we need a completelly new concept and electric motors are a fantastic step up once all the drawbacks are overcome
     
  20. hmaia

    hmaia Registered

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    I really enjoyed the chance to bounce ideas with someone who knows what he is sharing. I have spent a good part of my life studying internal combustion engines, have loved and always will love them.
    Very few mechanical sounds will ever rival the Ferrari F1 1966/67, or the 312 PB prototypes of early 70's.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR9kh6SzFPk

    The downshifts are pure music!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2015

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