Flat-spotting: S397 please include option to disable this!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Rapala, Jan 23, 2017.

  1. TJones

    TJones Registered

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    Yes, my post might not be very useful for the OP, in this short form and of course its very subjective.
    My statement above is based on impressions i've got, only by watching races. I have (almost) no real live driving experience, only some Kart racing (hobby) back in the 90th. But when you've seen that many practice sessions, qualifyings and races over the last years. You should estimate pretty well, if some who had a spun or lock up while braking, is forced to enter the box to change tyres.

    I think this particullar feature is almost perfectly implemented in rF2. In AC it's defiantely to weak, automobilista not bad but not completely on the level of rF2 and in Iracing there are no flatspots at all to my knowledge.
    ISI devs spend many hours to develop this feature to this level of realism, IMO it would be almost absurd to bring in another function to tone it down or switch it of. Besides that it would be unfair advantige over others in MP, in SP you get used of a more rough, arcade-like driving/braking style that has not much to do with RL.

    I can only can give the OP the advice to try following:
    - train to drive/brake properly.
    - if you flatsopt tyres, drive instantly and slow back to box and change tyres, just like in RL.
    - increase FF-damping, which mean of course a less senstive FF.
    - use a brake pedal with a loadcell sensor.
     
  2. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    I believe in rF2 this is built in the tire what makes it more advanced, well rF2 tire model itself is far more advanced, while in AMS it's not at all, look for mods that have it implemented you can easily modify this, ofc I could be mistaken :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
  3. PLAYLIFE

    PLAYLIFE Member

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    I've been watching motor-racing since the early 1980s, everything from F1 to MotoGP to rally. I too think that I've got a reasonable idea, however, my point was that observation is no replacement for actual evidence and by that I mean real tangible data. I don't think it will be possible so we will have to be happy with 'reasonable guesses' which is good enough for me. My only point is that there is no way of knowing what is more or less realistic that is backed by hard data.

    My general feeling is that flat-spotting is poorly understood in real motor-racing and therefore it will be less understood in any simulation, especially when the average Joe such as myself can create mods without a full compliment of real data.
     
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  4. rhamm

    rhamm Registered

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    I wouldn't mind if they added this feature for offline but only if it was something they could do in a day, including testing, simply because only a few clients have asked for it so there are more important things to work on.
     
  5. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    I've only been on iracing just over a year but requests for flatspotring are nearly a monthly occurrence.not wanting it is just an excuse for not putting the effort into being able to avoid them
     
  6. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    Why? Flatspotting is caused by brake lockup which is the result of the wheel not having enough downforce to create enough friction between the tire & pavement to overcome the braking torque. It also happens when the car is sliding sideways and the tires aren't spinning fast enough to rotate the tire's footprint.

    rF2's tire model includes the base friction, the hysteresis & tearing of the rubber, the sidewall stiffness, the tread stiffness, the abrasiveness of the track, polygons placed around the tire for measurement (horizontal & circumferential), and a bunch of other things that I can't even think of off the top of my head. The rF2 model is certainly adequate for simulating flatspots. rF1 model lacks many of these features, but particularly the circumferential polygons which is essential.

    If you want to know how well tire behavior in general is understood, I suggest you read Tire & Vehicle Dynamics by Pacejka(https://www.amazon.com/dp/0080970168).
     
  7. DavidG

    DavidG Registered

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    I’m all in favour of this suggestion. I have RSI problems with both arms and cannot cope with the juddering flat-spot vibration at all. In fact, as soon as I flat-spot a tyre, I have to immediately terminate the session (or at least go back to the pits to change tyres, when appropriate). This can be very annoying when it happens near the end of a race. Turning off tyre wear, or deadening the force-feedback, are poor solutions. In fact, as I tend to run short races, I would prefer to have tyre wear accelerated, which only exacerbates the problem. An option to have a different, softer, type of effect, or to turn down the severity of the vibration, would be most welcome, if this is possible. I would also like to see less severe flat spots wear down over time, which, if it is happening already, doesn’t seem that obvious to me (but then I've only ever been able to run for a limited time after any flat-spot has occurred).
     
  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Please guys, read more than the first post. The wear that causes flatspots, and the subsequent vibrations, are simply part of the tyre model. They aren't separate and can't be switched off.
     
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  9. Euskotracks

    Euskotracks Registered

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    Maybe a special filter to better avoid rattling could be introduced. I am not sure what kind of post processing is performed with actual smoothing but maybe a more effective one could be achieved.

    I have a few experience with signal treatment and would love to do some trials with lazza's DAM plugin to see the results. While I think that it will be possible to understand the behaviour by making dome tests it would be nice to know if this sounds interesting to the devs and would like to provide some info about it.
     
  10. Thepharcyde

    Thepharcyde Registered

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  11. Carbine

    Carbine Registered

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    i have done countless laps at Mt panorama and that track has a lot of tight corners combined with great elevation changes this is a great recipe for locking tyres and yet i have only had several flat spots after losing it in the chase before murray's corner.
    Yes i do lock up the tyres but you can feel and hear the lockup so i just don't use as much heavy braking or i just brake a bit earlier. You get to know ware and which corner you tend to lock up on by the rubber left on the track so i just compensate by braking earlier.
     
  12. Trev Rich

    Trev Rich Registered

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    someone can shunt you and you slide... causing flatspots
     
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  13. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    The effect should be reduced

    The ffb vibration can be overwhelming
     
  14. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

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    You can pit and take new tyres like in reality. You want simulation, you get it. :p
     
  15. Nitrometh

    Nitrometh Registered

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    +1
     
  16. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    I always wanted flatspoting in iracing,but you can adjust the ffb while on track,so it’s poibtless as many people would just turn down the ffb to be able to continue.

    I like how it is here
     
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  17. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    :) i m sure real cars absorbs more that our poor wheels
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  18. bwana

    bwana Registered

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    Please leave it. it was a real bug bear of mine early days and I worked hard on setups and driving and hardware tweaks to get it so that now it only occurs when I either have to lock up to avoid a car or obstacle from pushing too hard. It changed my driving for the better. If I get a spot during a race Im super pissed off but push on and the relief of a stop and tire change is welcome. In sprint races you just have to grit your teeth and get on with ,and learn for next time. Simulation ...
     
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  19. davidporeilly

    davidporeilly Registered

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    Disagree.
     
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  20. Daniel Surace

    Daniel Surace Registered

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    I cant believe this is even a request? this is sim racing, you flat spot a tyre your going to feel it, just like drivers complain about the jarring feeling when they flat stop in real life. personally i rarely lock up bad enough to feel its excessive in anyway. and if certain people are finding they are locking up so heavily. play with brake bias or drive with ABS until learning proper braking techniques.

    However for people with injury and the vibration is too much which i can understand this, perhaps there is a setting in FFB that can turn the overall vibration magnitude how like the old Rfactor had this, there maybe a line in the controller.json to lower this vibration effect if it is undesirable for some.
     
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