Flat-spotting: S397 please include option to disable this!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Rapala, Jan 23, 2017.

  1. jerrymcc

    jerrymcc Registered

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    This does exist in Trackmap. There is a wear circle widget that tells you which tire is slipping or locked, and relatively by how much.
     
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  2. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    There has been more than one F1 race where a driver has flat-spotted a tire and tried to keep going. The Commentators stated the vibration was often strong enough to damage the carbon fiber suspension pieces.
     
  3. Mr_Mints_Taboo

    Mr_Mints_Taboo Registered

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    Great! Another way to provide empiric evidence of how bad I am!

    And for the OP claiming the iRacing crowd aren't asking for flat spots on their tyres - don't you believe it! You would not believe how anal one thread got. There were suggestions of splitting the tyre into 360 sections, and monitoring which part of the tyre was in contact with the road!

    If there was an option to turn off flat-spotting, I would take it.
    Don't let me be 'that guy'. :oops:
     
  4. Led566

    Led566 Registered

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    Why always him?
     
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  5. Louis

    Louis Registered

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    Really close on Jason Buton
     
  6. Rapala

    Rapala Registered

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    Ha ok, I missed that one
     
  7. jerrymcc

    jerrymcc Registered

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    Personally, I'm fine with the flat-spotting idea. It teaches you to brake more efficiently and punishes you when you don't.

    However IMHO, most tire models flat-spot to easily.

    And more importantly, too strongly. I don't want my wheel to break. Could we just reduce the effect on ffb.

    I don't want to lower the overall ffb more than I have, because I lose the ffb effect on everything else too much. Already some rumble strips nearly break my wheel ... and some are ok ... some effect but not wheel-breaking.
     
  8. Rapala

    Rapala Registered

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    Sweet!
     
  9. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    You can already it's called "FFB Smoothing" in the games controller menu, it essentially "numbs" the FFB so if you're on an old G25/G27 or whatever and have "bad rattles" it will numb them down. However if you have a Belt-Driven wheel it's recommended to keep it at 0...and it will not break your wheel!

    Again for my old G25 I had this on 4 and it's lasted just fine,I felt enough vibrations through flat-spots/curbs and the wheel is working as good today as it did when I first got it years ago (with a friend now).
     
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  10. Rapala

    Rapala Registered

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    Just did an hour or two testing with the Indycar at silverstone and using the tips in this thread I managed to complete a 30 minute race without a single flatspot - nice! (The WGL widget probably being the biggest help with graphically seeing just how close to a lock-up you are.)

    Now the only thing that was a negative in my race, is that I did have a spin and then the AI were 10 seconds ahead with no way of catching them before the end, so I was thinking wouldn't it be cool if there was some sort of feature that would automatically slow them down if they are x seconds ahead of you......
    ... I'M KIDDING! :p
     
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  11. T1specialist

    T1specialist Registered

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    It does hurt your wheel. Just because the wheel doesn't instantly stop working does not mean its performance is getting worse. Fact: you get more play in the wheel which on g27 probably increases the center deadzone. Just like not changing oil in your car doesn't break it but it certainly hurts the engine.

    I'd love to have vision vibration from flatspots. I love the idea of flatspots. I hate when my wheel rattles. And I don't flatspot often. It is just bizzarre how people are acting like I'm asking arcade mariokart here!
     
  12. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Ok, but it's difficult to have one without the other. Just as flatspots are (as in real life) a result of uneven wear, your wheel rattling is because of the shape of the tyre (its interaction with the road surface, and its unbalanced weight). The amount of FFB being sent to your wheel at any moment is a function of many things, including the load. That load will fluctuate quite a bit if you have a decent flatspot, and that comes through just because the tyre is out of round - not because the game is identifying a flatspot and periodically sending "a rattle/bump/jolt" to your wheel. So it can't be switched off as an option.

    They did add the effect of the unbalanced weight after the initial release of rF2, and you could imagine that potentially being an option to turn off. But then if some people turn off that option and others don't, it might be seen as an unfair/unrealistic advantage.

    Regarding filtering, smoothing is basically all you've got I think (I haven't played with the various FFB controls to see which are current and may be beneficial), I felt from early on that smoothing wasn't the best way to fix various issues (G27 rattle being a major one for me at the time), but it can't be denied that without the opportunity to try different solutions we can't accurately determine their efficacy.
     
  13. T1specialist

    T1specialist Registered

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    Of course it can be switched off. There are many ways to do it. Underpass filter for ffb signal is one way to do it as it removes those high frequency signal spikes. It is also possible to remove the flatspot piece from the ffb code. It is just code.

    I understand where the ffb signal for flatspots comes from. If I had a bodnar wheel I'd probably love it. Or maybe dislike it even more because no doubt it would ven stronger felt. But on bodnar wheel the flatspots would not cause my wheel to oscillate either. I'm not sure how ffb works exactly but my understanding is that the game actually does send you a ffb jolt when a sudden spike load like flatspot occurs in the physics where the ffb signal eventually comes out.

    Different ffb settings are unfair advantage? People can already turn ffb off completely. With the same logic isn't that an advantage as well? I'm not saying physical flatspot should be able to turn off. I don't think it should be turned off. Not at least in an online session. If someone wants to be able to turn it off when driving against ai I couldn't care less if they can. But in multiplayer of course everybody needs to be on the same physics. Same physics does not mean same ffb settings though.

    Even with it turned off from ffb doesn't mean it is there. It is just not rattling your wheel anymore. I'm not saying this is a huge issue for me. I don't lock my wheels very often. But when it happens I'd rather save my wheel from rattling. This whole thread is kinda overblown. It is relatively simple and meaningless option in the end that has no effect on physics because nobody is asking the physics feature to be removed.
     
  14. wgeuze

    wgeuze Registered

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    Wow, you must be quite the specialist, so easy when you have no clue, right?
     
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  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    It comes out as a jolt, but the game isn't trying to send a 'jolt'. The point being it's not identified separately to other forces and can therefore be switched off. Filtering out large changes isn't switching them off.

    Of course you can turn FFB off, but then you're losing feel as well as strong forces. I'm aware some people are perfectly fine to drive that way (and actually hate FFB because it slows down their physical reactions), and yeah, that's a similar issue. If S397 had the option to turn off weight imbalance oscillation (in FFB) why would any competitive driver leave it on? (rhetorical question)

    No one's suggested otherwise.

    Never said they were. And it's not a simple option! That's why I'm posting!
     
  16. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    You're probably not alone in thinking it's some sort of canned effect, by the way. It's a shame rF2 isn't better understood, by both its current and potential users.
     
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  17. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    It does does it? Hurts the wheel I mean! Opened it up and looked at the cogs have you? It's a mechanical device so it's gonna probably fail in the future anyway, just like any mechanical device!

    I highly suggest and recommend a wheel upgrade, as that is clearly the only thing that's gonna please you if you don't want to adjust Smoothing.
     
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  18. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    Firstly I apologise if I may come across blatantly strong & harsh in my posts, I'm just trying to understand the mentality of wanting to go backwards when racing Sims are going forwards.

    So:
    For example when RF2 first came out people had to forget the past Hotlap experience and learn how to drive on a near real life dynamic track. It was a step in the right direction as this racing simulator moves forward in getting us closer to the real life experience, alongside ever evolving tire models and physics.

    Flat Spots are a part of that progression, they make you think deeper about how you brake a car, how you setup a car and about your own hardware. It simply helps you become a better driver, you know when and how to brake, you know how to control your tire wear better and most importantly you can become a smoother driver all round.

    I firmly believe that if you have an issue with flat spots then the answer is not to turn them off but learn how and why your getting them, it maybe your pedals are rubbish and you need an upgrade or a mod upgrade I like I've got (GTEye Springs in G25 pedals). I may well be you need to relearn how to brake effectively and/or setup the car better. The answer is not to go backwards to RF1 when driving on the same track with simpler FFB was easier - the answer is to look forward and improve yourself and/or your hardware.

    Now onto the subject of "wheels breaking", I loved my DFP it was great with all the buttons but after years of RF1 I realised I needed to step up to a G25. This helped in the feel of the FFB immensely, it was great and after the initial "OMG THE RATTLING IS TOO MUCH!" and subsequent inclusion of the FFB Smoothing parameter the whole feel just became amazing, especially in RF2. But then as time went on I realised that an upgrade was needed and i grabbed a T300 as I realised I needed to move forward with the times if I wanted to really appreciate what the devs are doing for us in creating a realistic experience.

    Those three wheels combined roughly works out to be 20% the cost of what gpu upgrades have cost me since I first bought my dfp years ago. Therefore it's clear to me (at least) that a wheel upgrade every five years is bang for buck worth it, the experience of road feel and FFB has evolved at a steady pace alongside the constantly evolving race Sims I enjoy. These are your normal market wheels too, they're not too expensive in the grand scheme of things, they will last 5 years+ and they are worth "letting go" when it's time to move on.

    If you can't afford it fine, turn up the FFB Smoothing or turn tire wear off, but please devs don't give future racers the option of not improving themselves as we may as well go back to RF1 and stay there indefinitely...as what's the point of moving forwards!?
     
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  19. Rapala

    Rapala Registered

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    btw something I tested last night, if you're offline and get a flatspot, you can 'cheat' and have the AI take over for a couple laps and when you resume the vibration is almost gone, so it seems RF2 does model the flatspot being slowly worn down.
     
  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    It can be hard to tell when you start including the AI in things, as they use simplified physics anyway. The condition you get the tyre back probably wouldn't reflect a human doing the same amount of running.
     

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