First of all, let me say that i didn't open this thread to complain about anything... My question is where is the conclusion of the tire model on ISI's list of priorities? I'm asking this because i feel that there are some small issues on the (already excellent) tire model available, like the fact that the tires become oval at optimal temperatures (and yes, i tried different pressures too), like the tires have low deformation, making us use lower negative camber values than normal. Anyone agrees about the issues? Or has other issues that i didn't mention? Cheers
Superheating tires when sliding across the grass or when you dump the clutch and spin the tires re-entering the track from grass.
I'm not sure how along the line it is ( perceived to be by the devs ) I'm not moaning either although the main thing I notice is the tire sounds are not very good ( but this is the sound department right? ) I think a little more tire flex (being transmitted to the ffb) would be nice (only a little more though)
Final? Never as long ISI physics and other department exist i believe This is ongoing process, team all the time search how to do something better, when discovered what that could be and how to do it, there come update(of course this mean months or years of development and testing) Or when they discover more of "small" or bigger areas of improvements that together can mean big step forward, then team decide and evaluate if it is worth a sequel. Said the simplified of course.
Fixing the grass (and wet track) 'effects' will probably come with a fairly sweeping set of changes. This is ISI... can take a while to get there, but then BAM! You've got 5x more parameters than you expected (and 10x more than would be needed for the basics). I'd expect some more terrain parameters in order to help clear those up, along with changes for aquaplaning etc, and for the contact patch pressure to be improved. It really is a shame it's where it's at right now with tyre pressures though; you look up nearly any car tuning guide and almost always the first thing is adjust your tyre pressures to equalise (or close to) your temperatures, but in rF2 it doesn't work. We can see from other aspects of the tyre model and the way other parts of the game are structured or being worked on that it'll be great when it gets there, but as a racing sim this seems a pretty big hole. *I guess I should say we don't know for sure how much the pressure issue is really a pressure issue and how much is where the tyre temperatures are taken (very close to the surface).
That's really annoying when you try everything to even the tyre temperatures and you can't do anything about it!! And that's because of issues like this that i opened this topic, so that someone from ISI gives us an answer. It's allways easier to deal with the problem if we know that someone is trying to fix it in short-term.
I don't think you will see a dramatic difference in performance when the issue with contact patch and tire pressure / temperature will receive a substantial improvement. The reason? Because all ISI cars that have been released until now, have been released to work in the current simulation engine. If and when the simulation engine will receive a substantial overhaul, probably a new versione of all ISI cars will need to be released too. Yes, after that you will be able to have an improved simulation of the tires, but don't expect to be able to lap faster just because more grip will come. If things will improve will be (to me) just related at the grip developed by the warm outer part of the contact patch. As simulation are just an approximation of reality, what we will have will be some tiny fraction of this approximation eroded. Maybe something that only expert drivers and setup artists will notice.
Actually, that's not an issue with tire model This is about supporting different surfaces. I think you're wrong on this. There's a difference between adding something to physics engine (body flex, clutch, turbo, etc.) or changing something that is already there. Nissan 370z has not received any physics updates, but it's behavior changed more than once in a significant way. One build I could barely make this car drive a bit sideways, next one I could do it if I was careful, next one I could not do it at all, next one it was easier than ever before and I could go even more sideways. But it doesn't have a body flex, since it wasn't updated with it. Changes in tire model may require some/all cars to get updated, but probably only to adjust a few things.
Sorry, but I can't understand how you can start your reply saying that I'm wrong, and concluding it by saying that I'm probably right.
Whether a mod will need updating is anyone's guess. We can speculate but I don't think we really know. If you look at pressure, and its effects on the contact patch load distribution, maybe the existing lookup tables will be okay to use in combination with an updated runtime model (so the mod doesn't need to change) or maybe the lookup tables will need to be redone to take the new modelling into account, and if that's the case there may even be additional parameters affecting it. But it's not about going faster, or having more grip. Right now if pressure doesn't have an influence on how the heat is distributed across a tyre, it means you can concentrate on other aspects of the tyre and not worry about the pressure. So you set camber based on cornering vs straightline, or run higher pressure to reduce vertical deflection under load, or run lower pressure because it might work better with your suspension for the corners you're driving - all without having to concern yourself about the temperature of the rubber you're relying on in various situations, because for the most part it hardly changes anyway. When the pressure is having a proper effect, it's another consideration when tweaking a setup; another compromise if you will. And anyway, if it's such a big deal in real life, it should be a big deal in rF2.
tire temps are the only thing that has constantly bugged me, 'Tis why I quit being truly serious about setups. Tire temps and tire wear are on the top of my list!
If this is for an official answer of sorts, there really isn't one. Sorry. Tire model will be periodically updated. You could, in many ways, say it's "finished" and that the physics are "finished". But that doesn't mean there aren't code issues attached to it, things that might be tweaked about it, things that will be added to it (contact patch changes, etc) forever, even 20 times a year (mostly internal). So no, also not finished. You get something complex and try to create a simplified model to do the same thing within the boundaries of current technology. If you find a better way of doing something, you create a new model. That can be both in the core and content being updated. In some cases, a model change simply changes how we use system resources, in other cases, it might be how the core represents the tire data given to it by the content, meaning subtle hardly noticable handling alterations. But nobody seems to drive the same... A non-change for ISI and some of it's testers, might be a huge change for someone who doesn't drive with a proper technique, etc. You could suddenly find yourself frying tires because you're now being punished for treating tires badly even more than you were before... I'm consistently told by real world people that our tire wear model is currently too forgiving compared to real life. So it's impossible to say exactly what changes will do for each individual. Nobody is saying there might not be gaps right now where you aren't experiencing enough wear (in fact, we know you're not), or perhaps other things, unsupported tires, etc, but that's also why it's important that we build content so we can properly test from a trusted internal base, to allow modders to make realistic tires of similar types as well. That's also why the "stop making content" posts a while back were pretty short-sighted.
Thanks for commenting Tim. Yes, I hoped for an 'official answer', knew there probably wasn't going to be one, but couldn't resist Still, interesting to know that the model is 'updated' so frequently and that there currently seems to be too little wear going on according to RL drivers. Had not expected that
good answer Tim I've refrained from ever mentioning fps & rf2 (at least in a negative way) as I'd hate to think the tire model was simplified ( resulting in a crunched down physics complexity) to boost fps physics - ffb is king for me anytime if things work this way p.s getting fantastic fps in rf2 now due to running single monitor mode ( in 3d vision ) with decent graphic settings I think it will be the same results using the rift dk2
Tim, thanks alot for the answer, i created this thread just to hear from someone from the devs!! And about the answer itself, i wasn't really waiting for dates, i just wanted to somehow know if you really had the issues i mentioned in the first post (low tire deformation on curves and the tendency to become oval at optimum temps) in mind!! I hope you do this ASAP, because honestly, i feel that RF2 is losing a little terrain for the competition in this field... Despite still being at the top Cheers
Funny thing, we just got tire data which will apply to all the GT cars in their next updates. Was supposed to make a small change in feeling and accuracy, seems it's coming across as a big one. Case in point to what I said above. Something to look forward to.
