FIA Formula Two Williams JPH1B Released

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 88mphTim, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. krivjur

    krivjur Registered

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    I agree, the lateral grip drop off past peak is quite sudden, especially when combined with some longitudinal slip like on hard acceleration on low speed. This is also one of the reasons I'm slow, low 1:08s on Palm Beach, almost 8% off the pace. That's bad even for my skill level. I'm mostly driving by feel and not using conscious brake markers or turn-in points etc. if I can get away with it. As I'm not trying to memorize as much, on throttle I'm tentative, I don't want to get near that cliff as recovering is tricky. Spazzy 'sawing' action is close how I would describe it too.

    When I'm lapping offline I don't care about lap times that much, so the driving can be fun. But when going online you want to be competitive and the limit behavior becomes problem if you want to be somewhat fast.
     
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  2. hiohaa

    hiohaa Registered

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    'totally unfounded arguments'


    ...............ive just posted. 3 videos of me driving. + a 4th of me driving in real life. And based all my arguments off that. And essentially written a magazine review.

    i couldnt get more founded even if i tried.

    and then theres you, going 'in ISI we trust'

    plus the 3rd video of me battling with some dude at estoril is really rather entertaining.
    Infact all 3 of my vids show RF2 in their best light lol.

    also yes i am attacking, but giving clear reasons WHY, im trying to describe as best i can the problem. And taking my time to fraps videos of me driving.

    And im afraid you're wrong......to be able to assess the finer details of the driving model.......you do kinda have to be good enough to drive at some kind of level to know what the finer details are.

    look, ive been playing RF1 since it first came out. I had many. MAny years of joy with that game. The fact that im willing to go to great lengths to point out the flaws in RF2 only shows how much im disappointed, and hope that ISI do something about it to make it a better game, or at the very least, do something with the FFB to bring it back to RF1 levels (or even give the option, at the very least).

    Regardless of RF2's flaws, I was still having fun yesterday racing with other people and having good battles. so at least its got something.
     
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  3. Pluginz

    Pluginz Registered

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    Good morning all :)

    Ive been trying out the F2 mod as well and just wanted to give you my feedback.

    My video is a little more 'live' (crap quality I know) with my phone camera right behind me hehe. I have deleted the ingame wheel as It disturbs my view, but you can see my steering wheel inputs. My setup is 540 in windows and 15.2 in game. My brake bias is 58:42. The rest of my setup is default!

    Car feels good. Im not the best driver of all time but have been driving sims almost 10 years now. Yep, over the course of 4 or 5 lapsw you can certainly feel the grip and adhesion getting stronger and stronger. Does feel quite immersive too. So far its not bad at all. 7 out of 10 for me :) :)

     
  4. baked bean

    baked bean Registered

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    We all want whats best for rf2 bro but i think your points would be much more valid if we where talking about the final version, there's still so much thats going to change before gold what will effect handling, things like the rubbered line i remember Tim saying its exaggerated, weather that be how much grip it gives or how quick the rubber gose down im not sure. Also the tire model not being finished yet can all be a factor. :)
     
  5. F2Chump

    F2Chump Registered

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    Why the disconnect between people's views though, for example, if you agree with us, why not just say so?
    Everyone knows it's not finished, but what's the motivation to fix it if everyone claims it's sweeeetttttttttttttttttttttt!!!
     
  6. B1K3R

    B1K3R Registered

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    There is a difference between constructive criticism and whining. I agree with you that the former is in fact a good thing as it will improve the product.

    Whining only brings negative energy.

    Staying objective, tone of voice, smiling, praising the good things and not just highlighting the bad things makes a huge difference.

    Also understanding that it's still in development and not finished should be taken into consideration.

    Cheers
     
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  7. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    I would like to finally get the reason why 2 years ago Gjon said some percentage of probability to release rf2 on CM 2010. And after 2 years it is still alpha/beta/full of bugs, far from final. Just want to know the story behind.
    To me it looks like almost final product has been dropped and whole development started from scratch.
     
  8. baked bean

    baked bean Registered

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    I dont agree with you im just saying theres still alot to change, ISI are on it weather you moan or not. Personally i have no trouble driving these cars on the limit, 1:03 my pb @ PBI in the F2
     
  9. Vinceton

    Vinceton Registered

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    If a brilliant painter laid on his first stroke of many, most would say its coming along "sweet". Not many would say "what the hell is this crap??? it's just 1 brush stroke. You're a horrible painter! I have a 4 yo niece that could do this". Simply, we are smart enough to predict the next steps. This is not the case for software development, unfortunately.

    What's more, is that if the viewer saw a reference photograph and the finished painting side by side, they'd say the painting wasn't even accurate. When in fact, that painting is exactly what the painter saw at the scene. It was the photo that lied with limited exposure range compared to what our eyes can pick up.

    Real sorry for the art analogy. My point is, we all experience reality a little differently.
     
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  10. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

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    Short feedback.

    Car feels great.
    Sound is PROPER.
    Graphics, too.
    AI as well.
    Base setup works good.

    First car where I haven't changed anything in rf2. no setup tweaks, no change in degs of rotation and so on. It all feels like it should for me.

    BTW: G25/27 users might want to use the centerspring option in the gamecontroller settings. Values of about 25% are just fine to get more resistance and it blends nice with the in-game ffb power of those F2...

    Thx ISI.
     
  11. DmitryRUS

    DmitryRUS Registered

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    Online races are killing me in rF1-2.

    another example of a very High Quality Online Iracing, even visible sagging and the suspension of other cars. rF1-2 of the deprived.

    Maybe physics in order in all modes. I ride on rTreiner, he told me most like mods, almost alive.

    Frankly, I do not believe in the ISI ... If we change the code online, I'll be happy, and finalize physics.
    Now what I see (BETA), as told to Stanislavsky "do not believe".
     
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  12. F2Chump

    F2Chump Registered

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    Personally, I rated the 60F2 as one of the best sim cars ever made, I also did an immediate backflip on the F3.5 post b85, and I've never downvoted anyone, I only upvote.
    Atm, rf2 isn't worth my time, all my energy is wasted trying to get cars to feel right, let alone work on sets and practice.
     
  13. F2Chump

    F2Chump Registered

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    What's that got to do with some acting like schoolgirls over everything ISI and one of their worst cars to date?
    We're trying to figure out why people don't agree with us, but it seems to be nothing more than a desire to argue and hero worship the mighty ISI.
     
  14. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    I drive really smooth , or ragged depending on how I want to drive and the situation , car or simulator I can chose. I will drive this car as smooth as posable as a result I BARELY move the steering wheel , but I have of course done more ragged laps as well to test the car out properly.

    I get solid 65FPS when recording with fraps 120+ FPS with fraps off

    I have tried the car with multiple FFB settings and multiple steering lock settings and rotation settings evan with FFB off.

    Its clear that a good number of people will just eat up whatever they are given , sure people will be exsperancing different results here and there and you can very easily mess up a car with evan basic things such as bad setup , crazy FOV or crazy FFB settings.

    But as sumone that has many years of experience with driving simulators and games in general it would be strange for me to suddenly notice drastic issues unless there was something fundimently wrong.

    I dont have a problem with "different" in fact I like having different simulators but they all have to function to a base level LFS,NKP,GSC,GTRE all drive very differently when you look at the subtle ways they gain and lose grip or how the cars even cars of the same or similar class handle but there will be certain facts outside of simple differences. For example LFS has issues with low speed tire grip and the tires themselves are quite slipy from the getgo , GSC the cars are overly drifty and in GTRE the cars don't coast as much as you would expect and are not as snappy as you would expect from a real car.

    As i said The modaling of the tires before you lose grip in RF2 is class leading and the bumpyness / road texture through the FFB is class leading but the FFB of what the car is doing is non existent on a g25 and as soon as you go over the limit it drives worse than an arcade game.

    I have driven on other peoples pc's in general and sure they have different setups but I could drive a normal lap with there set-up within a couple of laps regardless of how they have it set-up.
     
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  15. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    This was a big issue with RF1 and in the end what made me stop playing it , I just got annoyed with the fact that every single mod and car or new server join would mean 20min-2 hours of setting up making sure everything was to a basic standard and that's before you evan get into driving.

    Granted some mods were fantastic and the work moders do with tracks and cars is amazing in fact if it was not for mods I don't think anyone would even know about RF1. ISI clearly made a good engine that other people cold develop on but ISI have never seemed to be the best at content production.

    I don't think anyone ever really played the ISI cars on-line as most of them had very strange physics though the F1 car they had was decent in many ways.
     
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  16. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    Show me a video or send a replay file of you doing these things in RF2 because I ohnistly don't believe it unless I can see it and I have not seen it from one person.

    What wheel did you say you used again?

    I do agree that maybe RF2 is broken with a G25 but evan aside from that i have tride it with no FFB and varouse levels of lock , ini file edits and everything and i still see the same issues.

    you can also see from all my videos that I can still drive reasonably so its not a case of "user skill"
     
  17. tjc

    tjc Member

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    Well... I`m back, and tbh I`m back feeling pretty foolish lol.

    Last night I decided to spend a good 4 hours back with the new F2 driving at various circuits, in differing weather conditions but always with the default setup and I have to say it drove absolutely beautifully... not a hint of the understeer I experienced the night before (the night I wrote all that drivel I`ve quoted up top :p )

    I really can`t explain it but the conclusion I`ve come to is that ISI have made (and are making) such a good job of these cars that you actually do have to learn to drive them, just as you would in real life.

    The car still felt a little "light" at the front on corner entry (especially at the hairpins) and sometimes on exit too but apart from that it was a dream to drive and now that I`ve experienced it in that way, and "learned" to drive it I`d have to agree with Nismo that the 2012 F2 car could be up there with the BT20 as one of the best sim cars out there.

    Btw I`m not saying I`ve mastered it yet, I`m still learning to drive it but the learning is such fantastic fun :D

    So... I take back everything I said in my previous posts about this car and apologise for talking such nonesence.

    It`s a pure joy to drive and one of the best driving/racing experiences I`ve had.

    Just wanted to clear that up. :)
     
  18. F2Chump

    F2Chump Registered

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    From my POV this is madness....the BT20 has strong FFB and always feels connected, the F2 has neither!!!
     
  19. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Done this in rFactor 1 (including games based off of it like Game Stock Car, simbin stuff, etc) and in rFactor 2 many times


    Yes, sometimes things seem to be overly twitchy ingame in certain oversteer scenarios, and sometimes you need a couple quick hacks at the wheel, rather than a very quick but smooth and single motioned correction like more often you do in real life. I agree with you here, this could be as much as down to the ffb though, not nessasarily physics (but could be physics). I experienced this feeling almost disapearing in certain rFactor mods with certain ffb plugins, and certain ffb settings, then without those plugins or different settings I would get the "unsure" correction oversteer where I am back to doing the un-realistic (for the most part) multiple hacks of the wheel to correct thing, so FFB can have a HUGGGGGEEEEE influence on our perception of physics and chassis dynamics, unfortunately.

    So again this could be part ffb, and not pure physics of the game itself. Also, remember the whole lag of hardware thing, ffb, electronics sending info to the motors, motors outputting the info, etc, so when it comes to these "feel" things I always am slightly more forgiving with sims, due to pretty horrible latency on our end, from the time something happens in the "game world" until the time it gets through to our "laggy" monitors, or wheel, the ffb motors, or whatever.

    Done this a million times too.

    2nd point, you dont know if he kept his foot down, when you say kept his foot down I am asumming you mean flat aka 100% throttle. Well your being ridiculous, yes we can hear bigger lifts on video, but I can assure you (and I didnt think I would have to explain this to people, but some of you still MASSIVELY suprise me at times) that you dont know if at points he was doing some quick feathering of the throttle say down to 97%, 92%, 86%, etc you cant hear that small of engine load difference in that video. There is tons of times myself when exiting a corner where you are getting on throttle and modulate the TINIEST amount from lets say "flat" to 92%, well A I cant hear that difference myself, b. that tiny difference of throttle % lift does make a huge difference when you are on the limit and might be all you need (where as if you just kept it at 100% you may have spung or gotten into a big snap sideways moment

    So you shouldnt talk like you know it for a fact, when you are just totally assuming stuff based on nothing but your opinions and thoughts, not hard data, ESPECIALLY when you are judging, of all things, onboard videos lol, where you cannot even see most of the slips and slides a car does on an onboard video, all you can see are the ones that disturb the car in a big enough way where the driver needs to make visual corrections and that is the super super minority of all slides that happen in a race car.

    Ummmm this is one of the very reasons I prefer RFactor 2, Game Stock Car 2012, RFactor 1 and even to a certain extent iracing, because I can do this in ALL those sims, makes me grin sometimes when I see and "feel" the way the car is acting and reacting in game relative to my real life experiences. So maybe you cant do it, OR, MAYBE you CAN do it, and are doing it, but are not getting enough feedback to know you are doing it because of the general style of ffb in this particular sim not suiting what you like to feel in terms of feedback, (we all have different preferences in what we want and expect to feel in ffb as a way of communicating car info to us).

    There are times (more-so in rf1 than in rf2), when something feels or seems to act a little "off", but then I pause and watch endless replays, especially from external views, from all differenct angles, AND THEN, everything makes sense. This is the problem, sometimes we feel weird things due to ffb, visual or audio, so it may give us a wrongly negative impression of the cars actual physics handling, but then you go analyse it, rewind it over and over from many different external views, or you study and analyse telemetry data, and then you can see that actually the car is behaving just fine, and it then must have been just something that was weird about the information we were given (be it misleading/un-informative ffb info, audio info or visual info). In that case those feedback communication problems need to be fixed, not the physics model or tyre model or whatever itself.

    I dont agree at all, but yes it does seem harder in rf2. But its VERY VERY hard to get this right in a sim. We have to deal with so much less info, and the info we do get comes to us much later than in real life. So how much of this is due to those problems, and how much of this is due to just wrong physics, and how much of this is due to pretty good physics, but ffb that isnt good. Without hard data, its very hard to know, and it will just be all subjective based on different peoples' feel and opinions.

    This MAY be harder in rfactor than in real life, as yes sometimes it does feel a bit too snappy in certain oversteer conditions relative to real life. ARB, dampers, springs, diff power, diff preload and more all can have an effect on this particular technique though in real life and in the sim, but IN GENERAL, I do agree with you TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

    On the other hand, I have done this many times, in many different cars in many ISI based sims.

    But yes, LIKE ALL SIMS (non are perfect), I dont think rf is perfect in this area. But, again, is it pure physics/tyre model being wrong? Is it the ffb thats "making" it a problem for us (when in the actual physics the car is working very very good), or is it the whole latency/lag + on top of that the HUGE lack of feeling and delay of feeling that we as gamers have. Very hard to say, unless we are software programmers, software or racing engineers, etc etc

    Of course physics are being worked on, this is Image Space Incorporated we are talking about, and not just some video game developer that wants to make a pretty realistic racing game. ISI is a simulation company much more than a video game company. Simulation is there background, its where they came from LONG before they were making "regular" video games for people like us, they arent just some video game company looking to create a realistic video game.


    Hiohaa, nice driving you should make more of those vids, would help out not only rFactor, but sim-racing in general :), I dont understand how you can say there is no depth to the physics when I feel RF2 has the most depth of all sims, (not judging by FFB as that is too preference based, plus is too different between different hardware and the different way its been implemented software wise from sim to sim, but by how you actually physically drive the car, affect and change its balance, all the little tiny tiny grip-slide-grip changes going on, all the tiny corrections and grip changes taking place soooo many times per second, what the car is actually doing when you study and analyse its behaviour (rather than what you think it should be doing) etc etc. I understand the problems with certain oversteer scenarios and certain low speed understeer scenarios :) , but as a whole I still think RF2 is the most in depth sim.

    But thats just my opinion, like I said though above and at other times, I agree sometimes, and sometimes only in certain scenarios with what you and jameswesty are saying about the oversteer, so dont get the impression that we are crazy fan boys and we think you are 100% wrong, but as others have said, sometimes the way you get your point across does make others (including myself at times) think you are just trolling and flaming the product.

    Having said that, I am sure you are not here to troll, and ARE here because you want the rFactor 2 product to excel, and you seem to be so passionate about you're opinion because you want rFactor 2 to be as good as it can be, and not because you just want to troll. You provide insight and good explanations in order for the product to improve.s

    So for that I thank you and jameswesty and anyone else who puts negative posts but in an informative way.


    P.S. To all, sorry for re-posting this, it was originally put up maybe 4 or 5 replies ago, deleted it by mistake.
     
  20. F2Chump

    F2Chump Registered

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    Tried rf1 demo with DFGT and G27 and both felt terrible, so never bothered with it.....sounds like I saved myself some headaches, lol.
     

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