FIA Formula Two Williams JPH1B Released

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 88mphTim, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    If you believe reality, then don't trust videos, pictures and audio recordings blindly. You eyes are not cameras, and your ears are not microphones. They don't work in the same way and don't give the same results. No on-board video will look nor sound like what you'd experience when you're behind the wheel yourself.
     
  2. ZeosPantera

    ZeosPantera Registered

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    +1

    IE no lens flare in cockpit
     
  3. hiohaa

    hiohaa Registered

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    Well I tried the F2 car today.
    I was massively excited by it, especially with all the material ISI had released about its development.

    unfortunately its put the final nail in the coffin for my time with RF2.

    - the car has Zero feel in any possible way. You cannot feel weight transfer. cannot feel Weight even. Cannot feel any kind of grip. The FFB is an absolute MESS. IT basically feels exactly like Realfeel plugin with RF1. RF1 standard physics at least gave you nice weight, at the very least.

    - its handling and grip is just plain wrong, especially at low speed.

    - Because there is ZERO ffb feel, when the car oversteers, you have to correct it entirely from visuals. This means you end up most of the time in a tank slapper, because its so easy to over correct the slide. This aspect is compounded by the delivery of the engine power, i guess ISI Trying to simulate the turbo - more than ever you need to be able to feel when the back end is about to break traction, especially when the power delivery isn't linear, so you have some sort of chance of correcting it. You are denied this.

    - There is Zero feel of front grip, especially on turn in. You have to rely totally on visuals and tyre scrubbing noise. Because theres no meatiness to the FFB, and no weight at all, the best way to approach each corner is by going in slightly too fast, locking the inside front slightly under braking, and waiting for the understeer to stop as you hit the apex.

    - As a G25 owner the 'realfeel' style FFB is still very harsh on the wheel, provides no valid or useful communication to the driver, and still feels like its rattling itself to bits.

    - As I driver i feel Totally detached from the car. When it gets into a spin even at very low speed, on power, once the slide starts, it never ends, and you end up sliding at a continuous rate curving into the inside of the track which never stops.

    For anyone that wants to see a clear demonstration of what an F1 car is like in a spin - see Mark Webber's spin at Monza last weekend.

    - the car seems to have no weight or mass to it at all. And worrying, it feels 'laggy', it seems much less responsive than even the ISI F1 car.

    To summarize - absolutely awful to drive, and ISI's worst car to date.

    For me this is evidence that ISI clearly aren't going to change their approach, and simply don't understand what FFB needs to communicate to a driver, OR what a car is actually like to drive.

    Good points - sounds are good, a big step up from previous ISI Cars. Still...hardly class leading sounds though. Not as good as say Simbin's first GTR game.

    I think ISI should forget making cars, try and develop the game more, ignore the huge amount of ISI fanatics there seem to be on here - actually go out, drive a car or 2, maybe do a single seater experience or something, maybe go and drive a proffessional simulator which are rented out to F1 teams.

    I'm still going to reserve absolute judgement because its in BETA, and ISI didn't make rfactor 1 great - the mod community did. So I'll wait for them to deliver.

    But its been what, 6 months in BETA now, there has been absolutely no change to the FFB or the fundamental handling of any of the cars. The cars all inherently drive like in RF1 still, but now with realfeel plugin as standard.

    What a total failure.
     
  4. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    Grip is good. I'm exitting all corners at Palm Beach with throttle floored - even on 2nd gear and default setup.
    Of course if I suddenly apply throttle I'll spin immediately and that's what happened often when I first drove this car.
    But I learn new cars quickly. If you apply it gradually you will notice that car settles nicely on rear wheels and becomes more and more understeer as you increase throttle.

    I find it important with this car to keep braking gently, but deep into corner to have good turn in, while gradually increase throttle on exits to transfer mass back to the rear of the car. Works like a charm for me and I find car's reactions very pronounced and easy to read.

    Maybe FFB doesn't give too much direct feel, but this didn't stop this car from "telling me" how it likes to be driven.

    Two words: brake pressure.

    In reality there is often no such thing as maximum brake strength as it's only your foot applying pressure through some hydraulic system.
    In our homes we have wheels that allow easily press brake pedal to the floor while others will require more force. That's why I'm sure people using modified brake pedals will appreciate strong brakes, while I just decreased brake pressure to ~65%.

    You could say that about any car in any sim, because it's more less a rigid body. What we observe is reaction of rigid body to applied forces, but we can never tell where these forces were actually applied to. It's only a placebo effect.


    Like I said before - sometimes we want to get the car that acts like we expect it to. When we get something else we're dissapointed.
    But is "unexpected" really wrong? Perhaps we had the wrong idea how such car should handle in the first place.

    It was tested by actual F2 driver and now it's being labeled by a simracer as having bad physics.

    I'm still waiting for more word on FFB, but I'm perfectly capable of accepting it as an eye-opener to contradict what up to this point I believed to be realistic.
     
  5. amandhatt27

    amandhatt27 Registered

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    I think it's the nicest car to drive in the game so far :D .
     
  6. hiohaa

    hiohaa Registered

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    what a real f2 car sounds and drives like.

    i.e..... nothing like RF2.

    the car 100% planted.
    All the movements coming through the steering wheel are mostly FFB coming through the steering wheel from the tyres, you can see the jolts in the steering wheel in the fast corners. They are not corrections to 'mini' slides or anything of that nature.

    The car is totally planted and glued. It has real weight to it, as if its actually connected to the track, with....Tyres.

    If anyone at all thinks the F2 car is realistic, they need to open their eyes a bit and do some thinking and research.
     
  7. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    Yeah, me too.

    Maybe it's because I have a very smooth driving style. I don't suddenly overdrive the car and it has enough time to tell me I'm going down if I don't back off. If drive more aggressively, you may never even notice where the limit was.

    That's why I adapt to new cars quickly and this one was a real pleasure to "talk to".


    This is exactly how I drove my F2 today - I can hear he's gradually applying throttle on exits just like I did and that he's clearily slowing down towards apexes but not braking hard.

    Perhaps that's why I have much better feelings about it.

    And as for sound itself - you have been told already about youtube videos not sounding like the real deal.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2012
  8. blakboks

    blakboks Registered

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    I'm curious...is ISI surprised by the criticisms of the F2's (and the game in general--i.e. FFB and handling criticisms)? If not, then all is well, right? This means that they already know what needs to be done to correct it, or are at the very least aware of it and 'ok' with it as-is. If they are surprised, then that to me would be cause for concern.

    (Granted, some unexpected things are perfectly acceptable, and discovering and fixing them is probably the whole purpose of this Open Beta.)
     
  9. hiohaa

    hiohaa Registered

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    look, the car is easy to drive because the game is lacking so much in depth. You dont seem to understand this.
    You can't do anything with the car, you can't play with the car, balance it on an edge, play around on the limits - you have to drive it, like all the cars in RF2, in a specific way to achieve laptime.

    this is totally unlike real world driving, in every possible way. I can jump into RF2 and easily achieve best laptimes.
    Your point would be valid if i was slow.........but im not.

    I can easily drive the game. Theres just zero enjoyment in it due to the lack of feel and ridiculous handling.
    IF you think this car has loads of feel.....if you were to drive a real single seater, you'd probably pass out from sensory overload.

    And also - without telemetry its difficult to know if the guy in the vid is slowly applying throttle, but i Suspect not, because mid corner at 46 odd seconds onwards you can hear him floor it whilst the rear is re-gripping with a little slide. He keeps it on full throttle. Do this in RF2 and you spin instantly or go into a tank slapper.

    so i dont know what youre talking about.

    What the video clearly shows, and the whole reason I posted it - is the totally planted nature of the car - despite the massive amounts of jolt and kickback he's getting through the steering wheel, in some very fast corners, its moving all over the place........yet the car is totally stabled, and totally gripped in.

    There is grip and weight to it. Like in all cars. Just none that are in RF2.
     
  10. osella

    osella Registered

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    A *VERY* general idea that you can get from watching onboards. You're not giving the car the same inputs as those pros on those videos, definitely not as smooth, so why do you expect the car should behave the way you want.

    This applies to anyone who says "I saw him doing x and y with wheel so why do I spin in sim z when I do the same".
     
  11. osella

    osella Registered

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    hiohaa - so what laptimes exactly are you doing? F2 at palm beach. Saying you can do the best laptimes is VERY brave statement

    I'm far from 100% happy with the car myself, but saying that its totally wrong is just downright ridiculous
     
  12. CalgarySimRacer

    CalgarySimRacer Registered

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    Awesome mod...Ya the steering does feel kinda ungrippy even with a mild tune on the car.. Steering feels light, but Tim if that is how the physics really feel in that car, i'll take your word for it..

    I'm running 13 cars total (including myself in it), and I noticed in a pack compared to the other cars on this track (Palm Springs), quite a fps drop when I'm used to running everything maxed at 60fps with the other cars on all the tracks.. FPS drops from 60 - 45, and it's a little disappointing for me.. Guess some optimization will come about in the next build I'm hopin...

    Other then that, it's a gorgous car and was wondering what changes the new version of Palm springs brought forth. Should I have maybe uninstalled the old version of Palm Springs, or is the new version just some additions...???
     
  13. Panigale

    Panigale Banned

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    To the hard working folks at ISI, you have out done yourself here. This car alone could sell for the
    43 dollars I paid for this sim. This is what it must be like to be a pro driver and have access to a true sim.

    To those reading, I'm no fanboy, just check my feedback to confirm that. I'll say it as I see it. After reading
    the reviews I wasn't sure what to expect but this mod is amazing. I can't express that fully, this is driving a real car in digital form.

    My previous fav was the FR3.5 @ Sepang, I can do high 1:48s so while not great I know how to get around that track.
    I was able to do high 1:53s within the first ten minutes in the F2 and had less trouble throwing it around than the FR3.5.
    I'm using a T500 F1 and it is set to 70% within the wheel. Within the game I have it set to 1.02 ffb force mutli (or whatever it says) and the brake I reduced to 75% (I have it at 76% for the FR3.5). Everything else for the most part is default.

    My open wheel experience is very very limited, have some Ariel Atom seat time but this car just feels right. I feel much more at home pushing this around and the ffb is incredible. Lots of feedback and doesn't seem weak, in fact, I think the FR3.5 is weaker in some ways.

    To the people having issues:
    1) Are you using the default 540 degree rotation, my guess is that if you use an unrealistic setup it won't go well.
    2) Try a high speed track like Sepang that is made for cars like this.
    3) I noticed the ffb dropping, or I guess disconnecting (more than any other mod) so I had to use the reset ffb button I mapped on my wheel. Try that first and see if that isn't the issue. It did seem to drop on me the first or second lap, after one reset it was fine.
     
  14. hiohaa

    hiohaa Registered

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    fine, meet me any time in a server this weekend, and everyone on the same setup, and we'll play.
    im happy to.
     
  15. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Think it takes a few sessions of practice to make a good judgement of a sim car,

    Driving style & the usual sim cars that one is use to comes into play too I believe

    It's not helped me coming straight from the BT20 for instance,

    1st impressions made me come to the conclusion I needed to spend more time with it, although I've already posted points on ffb etc

    Maybe ISI have been experts in making this sim car replicate the real world version spot on -it's still just my opinion that there should be certain slight alterations to enhance the sim version (ffb / car tire flex / the "feel"car pitching slightly under heavy breaking etc )
     
  16. privatebrian

    privatebrian Registered

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    @Jameswesty, was that 1.25 set at Palm Beach?, cause i can easily achieve 1.11 on a unrubbered track with
    a default setup, man i love the 60's F3's, but this car just rocks.

    EDIT: lol, just seen your post above mine.
     
  17. privatebrian

    privatebrian Registered

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    No probs james, hehe...thought i was really quick for a second...oh well ;)
     
  18. osella

    osella Registered

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    No I certainly don't want to dismiss your arguments in that way Jameswesty, if you read my post I was merely reacting on that part about watching yt onboards, as I personally find those nothing but fun, nothing to make conclusions from.

    But hiohaa - I find it hard to understand how you can "see no depth in rf2 physics" if you drive fast, really strange.

    Btw I personally only did 1.09 - I did like 10 laps with the car and I don't know the track AT ALL - my first 10 laps there ever. But I saw AI on 100% doing 1.04 so that's probably a decent time
     
  19. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    For sure powerslides aren't easy to handle with these types of vehicles/tires but there is a way to stop sliding when things get out of hand (when counter-steering isn't enough). Just press brake pedal while continuing to apply throttle so front tires lose grip (more than rear tires) hence straightening the car. Of course this requires some practice but it really is that simple.
     
  20. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    It's different when some driver is paid (or forced :) ) just to help promote the game and when he's there to actually test it before product is ready for marketing.

    I'm not saying it's realistic because I don't have the knowledge to say so - I've never driven a real F2 car and never will. But I think you could say the same.
    It's more about being open minded and not labelling something as "wrong" because it's not covered by your current experience. We never stop learning and this F2 car just caught my attention for being so much different than I expected.

    It was obvious for me that people will instantly jump into saying it's wrong. I try to be more reserved with such judgements until I learn more. This doesn't mean that our expectations were wrong, but at least we need to verify them.

    EDIT - BTW, thanks for posting your time (I suspected it's 05, not 25 :) ) - low 1:06 here on default setup, but pretty consistent. I lack the skill and reflexes, but usually have a good communication with the car.

    You only need sound to tell if he's aplying throttle gradually. You need telemetry to confirm he was on full throttle at particular moment - especially when wheels are sliding.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2012

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