FFB settings with the AF responsive mode. Would like some feedback.

Joe said:
I feel effect on delta(front wheel angle)/delta(steering angle), as STS changed.
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If we are talking about the same STS function (though i believe there is only one), you shouldn't be. Steering Torque Sensitivity as the name suggests is to do with torque. Also, TechAde confirmed some months back with test data that STS functions as described....by affecting the ffb signal before being sent to your ffb wheel. It shouldn't have any influence on the steering wheel or front wheel lock.
 
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I tried two STS settings 0, and 2. You are right. Sorry my false initial impression on effect of delta steering ratio.


Paul Loatman said:
The steering torque sensitivity does not change anything about the steering ratio in any way.

I can easily make a video showing the ridiculous behavior with the default STS with no friction/dampening/inertia. Berney Villers has said you have to use these settings to avoid oscillations in almost any game. Even the new Bodnar SimSteering wheel apparently was given better friction/dampening properties to make it feel like a real car.
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Like to see your race videos... Also can you make a video to show the "ridiculous behavior with the default STS with no friction/dampening/inertia. Berney Villers has said you have to use these settings to avoid oscillations in almost any game."?

I may be not at same level as yours on this subject. I felt the wheel "fine". No such "ridiculous behavior". I did a quick video to show.... straight acce 0 - 100 mph hand off, no spin or oscillation and “loose”, etc... I went way above that speed, it just fine.

 
Paul Loatman said:
I made the video showing the behavior, but it'll take a while to upload so i won't be able to post it until tomorrow.

Are you sure you're using the responsive mode? Any other mode will have various things working underneath to minimize oscillations, so if you are using those other modes you're effectively using some amount of friction, dampening, and inertia anyway. In fact the only reason why Berney originally didn't have something like the responsive mode was because of excessive oscillations, which apparently you aren't getting. You may also have the steering torque capability set wrong, or you're just using a fairly low FFB multi, or some combination of the two.

If you're actually using the current responsive mode, then my wheel looks much more powerful than yours for whatever reason, although it could just be the weight of the stock wheel, which i don't use very often, or possibly because you're letting the car accelerate on it's own without influencing the steering. Maybe try the same thing again, but at high speed pull the steering in one direction and let go, it should oscillate back and forth at least a few times when you do that, especially with the low amount of resistance values you're using from the JSON. When i had my T500, it would oscillate with such a low amount of resistance coefficient, and that's obviously a much weaker wheel than the AF, it doesn't make sense to me that your wheel isn't oscillating with those settings.

If it's none of those factors, then you are in fact getting some noticeable resistance from the JSON files. I've tried the resistance settings with the AF many times, with many combinations and the only reason why i don't use them is because it's never worked for me at all. Would you mind posting your complete JSON file so i can try it?
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My video was with default mode. I did try both Responsive and Responsive (Peak allowed) modes too. They are fine, just like the video shown. I tried the F3.5 car too, a little oscillation, not like yours.


I used rF2 default controller.json file with only changes of: STC=13, FFB multiplier=1, and min torque=0
 
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Paul Loatman said:
Here's the video:



You won't be able to see the rest of the problems i'm talking about by watching a video, since you'll always get some jolts through the steering and it'll always require some amount of effort to start turning the wheel at high speeds, so you'll never be able to distinguish exactly what the driver is feeling by watching a video, but straight line behavior is relatively pretty obvious.

This is just one example of probably many that you could find online of what it should look like, and although the driver never takes his hands off completely (since that would be crazy), you can see on the straights that the driver is not really fighting the wheel in a straight line. I don't know what car this is exactly, but it clearly has a front wing and therefore would have some downforce, it looks to be an F1 car from the 70's. He even takes one hand off the wheel at 7:19, 7:45, 8:17 to adjust his harness, and 9:43 to adjust something else and the wheel is almost dead still every time. There's nothing largely different about the way the steering in this car would work compared to most cars, it'll be a rack and pinion steering system attached to the front wheels with some amount of positive caster for self alignment, and obviously with no power steering.



Here's another of the FR3.5, look at the wheel in a straight line:



I really did try to get the default STS to work for me, i tried all sorts of things with the effects available from the AF and i couldn't get it to feel anywhere near as accurate as simply lowering the STS achieves. The new Palatov with the two steering options only made it even more obvious that i would never be able to fix it with those other settings. It also has nothing to do with me not being able to drive with the default STS either (as you'll see when i get those races uploaded), i'm just as fast when i get used to it. It just doesn't give me the sort of feedback i remember getting in actual cars, and always has me fighting the wheel in both directions through a corner if i want to be fast, when that's the opposite way of how i learned to drive an actual car.
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By reducing the Steering torque sensitivity, you get pretty low range of torque in the small steering angle variation range (low sensitive). Hence adding AF “background” (set AF resistance, damping torque) effectively overcomes an oscillation.
This is what I learn from your video. Trade off this approach is that those constant backgrounds you added from AF will blunt the details of FFB, especially on low torque level details, which makes your wheel lifeless. Your video clearly shows such outcome.

Have you tried to use AF Dynamic Oscillation control, instead? Those setting seems make more sense to me. It applies only when oscillation occurs:
a) Dynamic Oscillation control – stationary, which applies only on a Car not moving. This may take care of your oscillation at garage or after spin-off, as shown in your video.
b) Dynamic Oscillation control – moving, which may take care of high speed straight line oscillation you have seen.


Anyhow, if you do like use the AF resistance, damping, etc such effects, I will suggest using in-game effect.

Force
Spring
Resistance
Damp
Inertia

are USB standard HID effect reports. Game developer shall output those reports per standard. However, rF2 may not, although in the Controller.json file indicates so.
Wheel vendors shall use those in-game effects first. If not, then they simulate them own.

Sim-X AF will adapt in-game effects if the game outputs. In your Accuforce menu, add an effect by select the “Game FFB Effect”. Once you add this effect, then open the setting, it will show you all four effects: resistance, damp, inertia, spring.
Slide all them to 100%, which mean use 100% of those in-game.
 
I agree, from Paul's videos as-well as my own RF2 experience (plus my limited amount of real-life experience), that Paul's way of FFB settings seems to result in a more realistic, and not so "digital", fake, snappy, sharp, etc., FFB experience for the user.

If STS @ 1.000 is fully linear FFB torque output, and if the vast majority of FFB in the game is physically based, then I guess that points to the physics (or parts of the physics) of the game needing work as we shouldn't have to "hack" the game-to-hardware FFB output linearity/curve.
 
Paul: on your video, when you spun off the road (stopped), the wheel oscillates. I got this once a while too. I think this is nothing to do with sim physics.
It just hits to the limit of wheel rotational angle (I set 900 degree on the wheel). I am not sure if the AF wheel has gear-lock or not.If not, it really depends on the feedback loop on the controller. All DD wheel vendors implemented so-called "Stop damper" to reduce such resonance. If you increase this setting, it may help.
 
OK, here is my theory on this. If I observed those behavior correctly.
the wheel seems oscillate within +/- 1.9 degree, which is the step angle for this motor; and only oscillating at straight line driving when no input (hands off) or at stop (zero speed). If wheeling input > 1.9 degree, you will not have such problem.

rF2 is about 100Hz HID communication with the wheel. At zero degree of steering (straight line) with no input (hands off), the wheel intends to return to zero position every 10 ms (100Hz). since no input from your hand wheeling, the game reads steering position naturally every 10ms. Now, if your wheel is perfectly centered, then after a few trial, the wheel will be stablized, but if your wheel is not centered, then the wheel will read non-zero angle back and force, hence cause such oscillating. If your wheeling input angle > center offset, then you may not have such problem. This is why you experienced only once a while at such conditions(?). I will suggest you may need to re-center your wheel to see if improve or not.

(after you added friction/dampp --- background, you basically over ride the threshold of wheel's self-centering abability at low level. thus, you might thought you fix the problem)?
 
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Paul, thanks for sharing your work here. My son and I just adopted these settings for the config file and the Accuforce settings. This is by far the most realistic rF2 has felt.
 
Paul Loatman said:
You're welcome. I just got back to rF2 after being away for a few months and the feedback always surprises me by how realistic it feels with these settings.
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I really wish i could try an AF wheel and compare how your settings change the feel of the ffb.
 
I have a new accuforce wheel and am interested in the settings but i do not see any apart from STS values. Were they in the OP that is now blank?
Those that have turned off all AF settings is that just referring to turning off all added effects?
Also the video that was in the OP does anyone else have a link?
 
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