I tried the Renault Clio and the Honda Civic BTCC car and I was very confused with the FFB. I couldn't see any logic, it felt very arbitrary. Sometimes on corner exit you have to use force to straighten the wheel, the wheel wants to stay turned, which feels very unnatural. On other occasions there is a self aligning force on corner exit. Also sometimes the ffb gets abruptely very light. It doesn't make any sense to me. I have been driving the FWD Audi TT on AC and RRE and the ffb there feels natural and believable. What is going on with the ffb on FFD cars or am I the only one who is confused?
I find the ffb on the Tt in ac more believable, but I think rf is going with the whole "real world forces" thing, which Imo doesn't work on fwd cars. It does just feel like on/off ffb. I would add a crap load of damper. But I don't. I sorta drive thru it. once u get used to it its ok. Rre is the middle ground feels like rf2 and ac combined.
I simply think that physics guy didn't have any real data from FFB to work with. You simply can't make a good mod without data or having ever driven the modeled car.
There was a BTCC mod released about a year ago. The ffb of the FWD cars in that mod feels much better than the official Honda Civic BTCC car. The mod cars feel similar to the FWD cars in AC and RRE. So it is possible to get good, natural ffb for FWD cars in rF2.
That's the point where I think a lot of you are confused, you're too used to street cars. If you drive a fwd competition car with a clutch-pack LSD, you're going to find it feels very on/off, very violent. *** My friend's fwd car with a clutch-pack LSD that I have the most experience with: http://www.polybushings.com/pages/glhs.html
Do you think this guy is also wrong? https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/car-physics-modding-for-dummies.55772/ Are you saying that Civics FFB is right? Which one? Medium tires or soft tires that are using completely different tire models? I understand they cannot be both right.... Please expand on you explanation about how a clutch which affects transmission modifies FFB which in my opinion doesn't have to do anything with FFB which only depends on steering geometry and tire loads. BTW your assumption about LSD clutches should imply that those type of clutches are being accurately simulated ingame. At the moment clutch and transmission seem to be scripted rather than simulated.
In front-wheel drive, the clutch-pack LSD is operating the wheels that do the steering. Typically the clutch-pack is set rather stiff, so as a wheel finds & loses traction, there's a very on/off engagement which pushes the steering one way or the other. Steering angle plays a role, too, because as you straighten the wheel and the tires are loaded more equally by the suspension, then the clutch-pack is more engaged (locked) and you get shot off in the direction the wheels are pointed without the left/right pulling. I may have to dig up a better explanation because the experience is more explanatory than trying to explain it. As for the tire differences in the new version of the Civic, I don't feel the difference most people do other than the mediums are noticeably slower. I think you can chalk that up to different people configure FFB differently.
The sudden on/off is due to loss of traction and the front wheels spin really easily in some of the FWD cars. Torque-steer takes over when the tires get good grip but, I'm surprised at how much wheel-spin these cars and create; some of it is understandable given that the front tires have reduced traction due to weight-shift under acceleration though. It just seems that the power is higher than I'd expect while the traction is less - especially at lower RPM's.
I really don't think either party are wrong here. Emery is most probably right, the way the systems and the power of a fwd react I imagine its very violent. However in a real car where steering is a lot heavier and more powerful, its easier to manage. Where on my t300 it feels just weird, and if whoever ever stepped into one and it felt like my t300 I think they would chuck the car back at the team lol Fair point?
I compared FFB output with telemetry and medium tires are completely different to soft and hard ones (tuning options) despite being in between both. https://forum.studio-397.com/index....cc-v1-3-observations.55619/page-2#post-893414
gonna try it now, don't think I recal a difference with tyre setups?! ok just tried tyre options back to back and I noticed little difference, if anything I may of felt that the hard option was a little more resistant in steering. But could be imagination!
I can't stand FWD cars force feedback in rF2, simply I don't drive them. I've already pushed powered FWD cars in track and the real steering wheel reactions there's absolutely nothing to do with rF2 FFB. IMO they tried to reinvent the wheel on this subject but failed.
They introduced a more complex tire system. This is not necessarily wrong itself. Their idea is presimulating many tire load scenarios but considering the infinite combinations of longitudinal, lateral and normal forces for different tire pressures I am not sure how accurately this is being done. If you divide the variability range of each of those 4 variables into ten discrete points you would get 10000 combinations. I wonder if it is possible to simulate and properly use those many scenarios. It should be noted as well that tires suffer a considerable deformation at the contact patch were important things happen. This would require remeshing to properly solve the problem with a minimum believable accuracy if contact patch force distribution to calculate pneumatic trail is required. These type of problems are typically solved by quasistatic dynamic approach where the loads are simulated to be gradually applied and remeshing every n time steps. These takes considerably longer than a simple static case where the same mesh can be used for all the load cases to be studied. I seriously doubt that the required number of cases to later be able to interpolate for any load and tire pressure combo can be approached with this strategy without sacrificing mesh resolution and therefore result precision. Anybody could tell me how many number of nodes rF2 tire model is using? Apart from all the above you need data to properly calibrate it. It seems this labour is not being done with all cars. Last roadmap says that upcoming Radical is being thoroughly modeled in terms of physics. This last part is very important for not saying absolutely critic. Even a not very complex model can provide a good correlation if this task is properly performed. However if you are using a complex model it is a must unless you want to obtain crappy results. There is no black art in FFB. Everything is a question if methodology.
yeah just put a few races with the civic at mcnolos great montreal. It does feel odd cant deny that. but turning down the ffb to 0.75 and lowering the steering ratio to 22.1 helped a lot, as it didn't feel so snappy and in turn made the ffb manageable! Would be nice to see the effect of the throttle reduced a bit on the ffb. It feels like the opposite of ACs enhanced understeer option.
In the image I posted you can see how medium tires in v1.30 are producing three times the FFB value obtained for soft or hard tires. Considering that speed and tire loads are the same in all cases it is clear the the acting point of those forces has to be radically different. How is it possible to get such different results? How the deformations around contact patch can be so different that pneumatic trail gets such different for medium tires. Its impossible to believe that someone made a validation/correlation of these tires. An important part of my job is to validate simulation software for the industry I work, and these results would have never been accepted. Someone posted that medium tires where using newest contact patch model according to the version appearing in the tgm file which I had found to be different from tbe others both in size and format. However the release notes never said anything about new CPM. For that reason I asked for some clarification to be made by car physics guy that could explain such an apparent error. DX11 shouldn't be an excuse for car modding team. If it is an error it should take minutes to be fixed. After so many people talking and speculating about this issue some clarification is deserved. Still waiting for it.
Power steering is not simulated in rf2 so that could have some effect. In real life the steering probably can be done so that you don't get those forces back to driver so much.
There is no such "throttle effect" itself. Apparently pneumatic trail is moving back and forth quite a lot depending if the tire is pushing or being pulled. These provokes that the resulting torque from lateral forces change sign between both situations. Also when both front tires have very different loads, outer tire pushes the wheel more to the inside when accelerating. This part of the FFB is not so much pneumatic trail (CPM) dependent but mainly on the longitudinal force and steering geometry.
Regarding the feel of clutch-pack LSD, I dug this up from David Vizard's 1977 "How to Modify Your Mini", pg 145-147 So, in general, if you're not liking the FFB of the fwd cars, then try turning down the steering preload (e.g. the diff locking torque mentioned above).
