FFB multiplier

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SuperMonaco_GP, May 8, 2021.

  1. SuperMonaco_GP

    SuperMonaco_GP Registered

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    (already posted in rf2 discord but didn't get any answer, I'll try posting here..for what this forum is worth)
    I have a very simple request for s397 devs : rf2 cars varies a lot in terms of ffb gain from one another, maybe it is the sim with the biggest variation of all; now, being a simucube2 dd owner, this is felt very clearly and it becomes a problem when ffb multiplier needs to be dialed in at the start of a session. in fact, a good 10/15 minutes has to be spent to find the right value of ffb multiplier for every car/livery (unless you manually write down the desired value you came up to for every car). all this could be avoided simply by adding an ingame ffb multiplier +/- command which you can bind to access without having to exit and go back to the main menĂ¹ every single time. please guys, this continuos back and forth from game to menĂ¹ is becoming more and more tiresome. cheers.
     
  2. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Agreed.
     
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  3. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    I'd like to say a couple of things.
    IRL, the force in the steering wheel changes a lot depending on the type of car. Then if the force of the FFB would be the same in different cars, that would be an error.
    The second one is... 10/15minutes to find the right value of ffb multiplier, really? Do you know that you can change the multiplier from the Setup - Calibrate page in the game?
    I don't know where is your problem, but you have a problem.
    I usually adjust the multiplier in one or two minutes as much.
    I don't say that would be bad to adjust the FFb multiplier when you are in the car, but asking for new features, based in experiences that have nothing to do with the normal behaviour of the game, doesn't make sense (from my point of view).
     
  4. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    You are missing a very important aspect!!! Not everyone has a DD wheel capable of covering all ranges of forces... By that logic, then I would have to set the car that produces more Nm and then would have to match to the real counterpart percentage of the wheel to a car that produces much less forces... Does that sound good to you? If you one is using a 6Nm wheel like me and 6Nm is probably the lowest a car will produce in game for real, than I would have to play with almost no FFB... So, no, one should go for the highest it can without clipping for all cars. No fun with low FFB to me and for most people..

    It can take me more time depending on the tracks too... A multiplier option on the fly would be very welcome, thank you very much.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  5. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    Then, if i understand your logic, they should fake the FFB force to match with wheels of low Nm?
    I don't know what to do with a wheel of 6Nm.
    The force of the FFB in rF2 is a direct consecuence of the physics. Then, the force of the FFB with the same multiplier should be different.
    As i said before, a multiplier option on the fly would be very welcome.
     
  6. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Of course not. I already said what one has to do with a lower FFB wheel...

    I agree with you. If I had a good DD I would follow that, but majority of people don't have a powerfull DD, so one should make some compromises to feel the cars as well as one can.
     
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  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Cars already have a "nominal max" steering torque value, designed not only to alert the game when the wheel in use can handle at least that much and scale the forces realistically, but also to scale 0-100% with weaker wheels. If that's not being done correctly it's down to the mod maker - generally 100% FFB mult should provide an amount of clipping, then people wanting to avoid most clipping can set all cars to 75% or so, stronger wheels closer to 0.50, and DD users can work out what works for them.

    If 1 car needs 120% and another 60%, one or both are 'broken' and should be fixed by the maker.

    I'm also a little confused by the 15 mins - if you aren't using any sort of indicator (telemetry, simhub display) it's nearly impossible to feel the correct value in 150 mins let alone 15, while if you are using an indicator it shouldn't take more than a couple of partial outlaps and about 5 mins. With telemetry just set the mult to 0.50 or another low value, run half a lap and see what the peak forces are, then adjust the mult accordingly.

    Finally, a 'live' user-controlled modifier would doubtless be used as an exploit by some.

    (I personally think the game should have different selectable modes for different wheels, and the best mode for the majority of wheels would be where the game works out how much clipping will happen (or is happening) and adjusts the peak level automatically to a saturation level the user has set (basically more or less clipping). I've said more on this elsewhere so won't go into details again)
     
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  8. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Yeah, saturation sounds like a good idea. Isn't something in the controller file (something about extrapolation time or coeficient) already doing that and scaling forces when it reaches that limit? I think so.

    Still, I don't understand your stance about being possibly an exploit. So are a lot of other things... Probably much worse than that and FFB to a lower value can already be set so I am not seeing any kind of real problem with that...

    Also, since its about MP side of things, I am pretty sure there might be a way to turn the configuration on the fly off... I mean, I am remembering how Dirt Rally locked you from using external cameras if you chose that, so it can't be so hard to code that.
     
  9. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Is it?

    A live modifier can be modified live, not just manually on a keyboard. Think about it.
     
  10. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I think I've read something among the lines, for sure.

    Well, I think some DD can be capped to whatever on the fly too. I don't think its too much of a deal. If needed I think some measures can be put in place when it comes to online events. Never heard about it being a problem in AC, since that had FFB live options.
     
  11. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Steering torque extrap blend="0.00000" // Higher blends of extrapolated value allows driver to feel torque changes even when actual torque exceeds 'input max' (0.0=disables, 1.0=max)

    There you go. Might be misundertanding it, but it sounds like what you mean.
     
  12. SuperMonaco_GP

    SuperMonaco_GP Registered

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    thanks, you're welcome.
    as any other sim.
    I'm talking about s397 original content, not mods.

    just a question : who owns a dd wheel of you? can you relate to my experience or you are simply defending a game engine shortcoming by making it a feature?
    also, my point was a completely different one to what you are answering, and you didn't really understood my point : I'm not talking about modifying the baseline physics of certain cars to accomodate and equal the ffb on a certain predetermined level.
    and I'm not talking about finding the "optimal" gain through telemetry, not at all.
    I'm talking about finding a "comfortable" ffb gain that can give me a good experience when driving, and to have the possibility of changing it while driving, not by stopping the session, going back to the menu and restarting every time from pits, nothing more, nothing less.
    This is something that has nothing to do with car physics, realism, game exploits or other stuff you mentioned.
    And I totally get that when using a belt/gear driven wheel, this is not a problem, I get it. So please, do not intervene saying "I have a problem" when you don't know what I'm talking about and you have no mean to experience it.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    S397 is made by S397, so they're the modder. They set that same parameter based on what the car does, so the same applies.

    With all respect, please understand what people are saying.

    If one car generally puts 10Nm on the (virtual) wheel at its peak, and another does 20Nm, the parameter I mentioned will generally be set somewhere near 10 for the first, and 20 for the second. A DD wheel set up correctly will tell the game it can do 20Nm (as an example) and the game will output 20Nm for that second one, and scale the first so it outputs 10Nm (correctly).

    A weaker wheel can't reproduce either, so the game will scale 100% to 10Nm for the first, and 20Nm for the second - maximising FFB in each car for that wheel (yes, they end up about the same strength, despite the underlying physics being different).

    What you want is already possible, what the game lacks is a 'default FFB mult' option, meaning you need to adjust each car (and each livery of each car) to the correct level - but that correct level should be about the same for all cars, if they're done right. There are no official guidelines for modders though, so you sort of have to judge it against the official mods (which also aren't quite all the same) and try to get it right.


    *And PS: what I said about live adjustments and exploits hasn't been understood, and wasn't in response to you. Side conversations will happen.
     
  14. SuperMonaco_GP

    SuperMonaco_GP Registered

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    I'm sorry, for you cars and tracks made by the game devs are mods? So, how do you call cars and tracks not made directly by s397?
    I think you have some confusion about the meaning of modding.
     
  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    So is this what we're discussing now? Any thoughts on anything else I just said?
     
  16. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    As I see it there are no adjustments made to the amplitude or strength of the FFB signal by choosing a certain wheel profile.
    It's imo also technically impossible for the PC hardware to see what kind of motor is attached and how its going to react to the signal, it can't measure.
    Next to that DD wheels and commercial wheels are not all the same and don't use the same drivers, making it even more complex.
    The amount of signal clipping or level depends on the wheel you use and the signal specific car physics creates.
    I don't mind setting it up per car.
    With my wheel, a simucube 1 system on a small mige, 60% is generally the right setting to avoid clipping.
    And tuning down from there gives me the strength I like to drive with.
    It's very annoying still though I have to do that again together with the mirror settings when I change the livery on the SAME car.
     
  17. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    What do you mean about possible exploits then? I don't get it.
     
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  18. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    The only feasible exploit with FFB is turning it off or very low, which many Esport drivers do.
    Not sure it will be a advantage when you can set or change the FFB gain inside the car.
    When you're after simulation realism, and a car has powersteering settings, like lmp2 have.
    I think it should be made possible.
    While that's the main focus of the studio from what I understand.
     
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  19. SuperMonaco_GP

    SuperMonaco_GP Registered

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    here lies the problem, for example the McLaren 650s GT3 and the Porsche 911 rsr GTE have a way heavier ffb than all other GT3s and GTEs, and they are both official content cars, not 3rd party mods.
     
  20. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    And what is the exact problem here, realism?,
    You know how the cars compare in steering feel in real life?
    I can't (i wished though), and I'm 100% sure they feel and handle differently, definitely not the same.
    You can easily turn it down in the setup to the level you prefer.
     

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