FFB in real life VS current sims

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by hiohaa, Nov 13, 2011.

  1. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Hehe just noticed that and Nikos even mentioned it the post after it was resurrected:D

    I read most of the thread but never checked the dates and missed Nikos post. Hiohaa had the same views in the other thread that was closed and I dont think its changed, I only started RF2 at v90 so not sure how it was in the earlier builds.

    V107 I seem to be getting much better understanding of the cars in general but I dont know if much was changed in the physics or FFB as its not in the change-log. Maybe its just that I ran a few more laps and got the hang of the physics and better setups but the cars do have a pretty nice feel to them at least fr3.5, GTR, 370 and f3 that I have used most. The FFB even on my g25 is giving lots of info on grip levels, over and under steer which is about all you need in a sim, Like I said its not going to be 100% as in real life but its IMHO the closest to a natural real car feel compared against any other sim Ive tried.
     
  2. Drathuu

    Drathuu Registered

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    Interesting read... Leo has an excellent theory on why FFB is wrong... But it pretty much means every wheel manufacturer needs to change the way their wheels work and all software coders need to rewrite their FFB.. something that is unlikely to happen as who would go against the current design norm..

    Article.. here ---- Well worth the read -> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=...Computer%20Simulators%20Does%20Not%20Work.pdf
     
  3. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    I remember this very well...
    Somehow the result of his plugin never did convince me. I heard praise all around, but I never trully enjoyed driving rf1 with or without it.
     
  4. Brian Clancy

    Brian Clancy Registered

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    100% correct, FFB in a sim has to deliver 10x the information that a 'real' driver gets from the wheel of a car. The only way FFB gets better is if it can deliver info either more clearly, or simply more info... Infact, from real experience, I can tell you now that any FFB that gave similar feedback to a 'real' wheel would be hopeless and utterly horrid to use. The FFB in rF2 is best I have tried in any sim so far, the level of feedback and the way it distinguishes different info is exceptional.
     
  5. privatebrian

    privatebrian Registered

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    crap Logitech Momo Racing wheel (the cheap black one), hmm....thanks spinelli.

    I would just like to add that i own this Crap, cheap, Black Momo, do i consider it cheap
    and Crap....NO, you see this wheel was sent to me from several thousands of miles away
    by a friend on these very forums...a very,very kind jesture i think.

    And before that i was using a, i supose cheap Xbox360 pad...but the funny thing is i was
    still enjoying playing rf2 (and other sims), and i was able to keep up with some of the other
    guy's online aswell.Now when one of those guy's found out i was using a gaming pad he
    kindly offererd to send me this Momo wheel (there was no way i could afford a FFB wheel),
    and ever since it has completely changed the way i play racing sims...so do i consider it to
    be Cheap and Crap NO! Simple.

    ps. Sorry for OT. Rant Over.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2012
  6. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    LOLOL, I had MOMO for quite a long time, I was very fond of it, seems like some people are really spoiled brats around here.
     
  7. privatebrian

    privatebrian Registered

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    Nikos i can only agree :)
     
  8. To all disappointed Logitech fans I can only advise you to buy a FANATEC product and run your sim! :D
     
  9. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    :) did you read my entire post? :) I was not only quicker over one lap but more consistent over many laps with the black momo racing than the technically much superior g25 and therefore enjoyed the black momo more :) I too started off with that wheel :) . The reason why I call I the cheap crappy o e is because so many people refer to it as that, yes it seems to have more input lag than the new wheels, yes the ffb motors and overal system is inferior to new wheels, yes it's much slower to turn and to react from what's going on on screen than the new wheels, yes it is more notchy than the new wheels, but I was faster and more consistent with this wheel with many mods/games than I am with the g25
     
  10. privatebrian

    privatebrian Registered

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    Yes i did read and fully understand your post :), but cheap and crappy sort of jumped out at me, you see when some one you don't even know, out of the kindnest of thier own heart sends you something that you know you couldn't afford, well to see them sort of words wasn't only offending me but them aswell, look it's a wheel and it does what a wheel is suppose to do, i cannot judge it against other wheels because i don't have that luxury, but what i do know is that it feels fantastic to me, and that it was sent to me by somebody i have never meet or even know, hope you understand.
     
  11. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    Hey, spinelli cleared all this, dont feel bad, as a matter of fact you two persuaded me to get my Momo out of the closet and give it another try!
    (maybe Ill get my ARI ratings better this way :p)
     
  12. privatebrian

    privatebrian Registered

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    ;)
     
  13. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Give it a shot :) but most people thought I was crazy when I was explaining this to them on the old forums back over the first year or two when the first G25s came out, so I must have some very weird ffb preference compared to most people, and i can see why as the g25 is very much so superior in many if not just about all areas. I doubt most would be faster with the black momo compared to the g25, or even enjoy the general driving of it over a g25, but for me in terms of pure performance (raw laptime and consistency) I excelled with the "momo racing" over the g25 in certain cars and sims.

    I think the main reason for this is the fact that the G25 's ffb is off when you are driving straight. It's like a centre area deadzone, not for the wheel input itself, but just for the ffb motors. This is what killed me the most when really pushing the car as I now effectively had 0 ffb when the wheel was straight or close to straight. This hurt me masssively during most of the braking phase and initial turn in area of the car, as with 0 ffb I couldn't feel the tiny ffb feelings that were telling me for example that my right rear was juuuuust on the limit of locking up, but not quite locking up yet. When really pushing the car that made a huge difference for me in just about all sims, including non ISI based ones. Although it seemed to to hurt me the most in certain rmods/cars for rFactor and definitely in GT Legends which I still play to this day.

    In my personal opinion, the stock in game momo racing ffb presets in GT Legends were tuned VERY well for that wheel, not in terms of having a natural life like steering feel (other peoples ffb settings did a better job at this, and other wheels in general do a better job at this like the g25) BUT in terms of feeling what the grip levels of the 4 corners of the car are, especially under threshold braking on the really nervous cars of GT Legends.

    I had to generally use about 0.5 to 1.5 % more front brake bias on the g25 compared to my saved momo setups due to my problems. This further resulted in performance problems on top of the feel problems I already had. Then on top of that I would sometimes try to fine tune other settings to make up for the added tiny bit of front brake bias, it was just a mess for me.

    I now had a problem. I needed a wheel that would keep it's ffb motors on when centered like the momo racing did, but after using the g25 how could i go back to the momo racing with its increased lag, slower response rate, slower speed, and much less powerfull overall forces? I was in a sim racing hardware dilemma lol.

    I was therefore excited when the g27 came out. I then read it still had the same no ffb when centered issue, but the centre area was smaller, but still there, so I said no way, I learned my lesson the first time when I spent 2 damn years trying to force myself to like and be quicker with the g25, no point in doing it again if the problem was still there,

    So I bought a used momo force wheel, the "force" is the red, belt driven, partly metal one that was very expensive when brand new. I got it cheap used, and have been using that for my wheel ever since.

    Sure it's not as strong, quick, responsive as the g25, but it's better in probably all those categories than the momo racing that I performed so well on, plus MOST IMPORTANTLY my ffb when the wheel was centered was finally back!!!!! Brilliant!!! Although the feelings seemed slightly more subtle in the red momo (maybe due to belt drive), they were still there regardless, FINALLY!

    The pedals were worthless though. I got used to the plastic ones on the momo racing but after using the g25s pedals for so long there was no way I could go back, and the momo force pedals weren't much differed driving wise to the momo racing other than metal parts instead of plastic, but in terms of driving and not physical construction the momo force pedals were very surprisingly not any better AT ALL than the momo racing, maybe even worse actually.

    Moral of the story is, regardless of how natural or real life like a wheel, a sims' ffb or a combination of the 2 feel, we need (or I certainly do) a compromise with regards to pure realistic steering feel and feeling the car, in order to compensate for not being able to feel chassis, tyres, g forces and overall grip conditions underneath and around you. This is OPPOSITE of my belief that the pure physics of a sim should not have any compensation or fudging built into it and should be made as technically perfect and real as possible, but that's a different story altogether and we've already had 2 or 3 huge threads about that with one of them being eventually closed lol.

    This all goes back to the main subject of this thread. So, UNLIKE my feelings of a sims physics model, when it comes to the actual force feedback of our sims I do believe there has to be some compensation aka fudging built in as some others have already stated. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2012
  14. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    I did the rubber ball trick, quite effective, but this suddenly went POP!!, hiting the opposite wall, it gave me quite a scare!
     
  15. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    hahaha Privatebrian, I just noticed that you sent me a negative reputation thingy for calling the momo racing wheel crap, when I love that wheel. But thanks privatebrian hahaha
     
  16. privatebrian

    privatebrian Registered

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    bit slow Spinelli :)

    At the time i didn't like your post, i judged it accordingly,you do have the option to do
    that, yes i did it in the heat of the moment...nothing i can do about it now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2012
  17. Ricknau

    Ricknau Registered

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    Drathuu, very interesting read. Thanks for posting it. Surprised it hasn't stimulated more "discussion" here.
     
  18. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    Most people probably skipped right over it or didn't understand the implications that were suggested in that article. I think Leo has a good point on how to improve how our wheel feels though.
     

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