Also some cars will give you 0 feeling and you have no idea how much grip there is. Like in RL racing, we often hear drivers complain about the lack of feel from the car. I like when the steering wheels gets lighter when you are near the limit, so you get a feedback before is too late. In F1 2010 (codemasters), while not a proper sim I managed to set my wheel to be lighter when I was on the limit and I knew if I was pushing the car to the top on every corner based on that feeling. From simword the best FF I have experienced is LFS, you can tell from the wheel if you are about to under/over steer so you can adapt before you start losing time.
There are plenty who don't get it, including one certain developer for TSF who thinks limp and numb FFB is the way to go as far as their sim is concerned.
Hi Crash you got it. The wheel gos from + to - but never limp. A G25 an above average pc nice headset booming sound. I feel every berm bump crack etc. in the road. I have raced a lot of stuff in my day. fwd rwd 4wd 1wd lol anyhow, yes I had a friend who raced 1/4midgets as a kid, so I show him my sim pc setup and he sez piece of cake. Wrong never got it out of the pits. The guy could not drive a sim. So the arcade or sim drivers do beat me a lot. I did win a race this yr. with ridgerunersracin, took me 4 or 5 yrs to get a sim win lol. In real life I won everything I enterd. From carts which we built to production cars. B prod vett, F prod datsun roadster, IKF B open karts. Yup real feel all the way. A G25 on my de sk, at 65 im good with that. Come on rf2 Rogenator
Did you already tried nkPro? Its the only sim were i can let the car "auto correct" itself while oversteering, specially with the vintage.
its a shame that this thread has become a debate about what is realistic and what isn't. as i said in my original post, it was all about getting a discussion on what the developers can do in the sims we play to make the ffb convey the 2 pieces of information - understeer and oversteer. it was more about working out ways to convey those 2 pieces of information through the wheel. for example, i dont know, using the vibrations in that new CSR elite wheel from fanatec, to directly convey front end grip limit as the understeer starts etc...this isn't necessarily what you'd feel in real life, not exactly, but seeing as our ffb wheels aren't connected via a steering column to 2 wheels, the information has to be conveyed through other means. i still stand by my original post, that ffb today currently is terrible, especially at conveying understeer. i just hoped to hear from the developers at ISI how they linked the car parameters and physics to the ffb messages - what those messages were, and what the links were to the car handling. ill try and stick up some videos of me on youtube driving when i get a chance, it will show you how easy it actually is to control a single seater or a radical-type car, in wet slippery conditions, doing 100mph+. It genuinely isn't difficult in the slightest - as i alluded to in my original post though - more than half the feel required to control the car comes really from factors other than the steering, especially on oversteer. again, i'll say that, the oversteer is for the most part conveyed in the ffb in simracing, understeer isn't at all. also it seems to be a lot harder to control oversteer in simracing games compared to real life - something other real drivers have said - it would be interesting to know whether this is down to the tyre models used or the 'fudged physics'. i dont know.
Why do you need the FFB to tell you if the car is understeering? For me I know the car is understeering when I'm using "what should be" the right amount of steering input and the car still isn't turning. As far as when the car is oversteering I've already made my point on that. Go back and re read if you have to. As has been mentioned in this thread and many times over the internet, try netkar pro. Spend some time with it setting up the FFB. The F1800, Oscella, vintage replica are especially amazing. It's the only sim I've ever tried that you actually feel connected to the road. I don't know if it's the tire model or what it is but like I said, Kunos set the bar as far as FFB is concerned.
Becuase if we're just going to rely on vision alone, we might as well not even have ffb at all? lol The point is, we are missing so much sensory input sitting at a desk or in a frame, with just a wheel, sound & monitor that we need those 3 things to be the best they can be to react to whats going on - you yourself poiinted out it needs to be something more than realistic (more feel). In a real car you feel a difference through the wheel when you have understeer. Why should have have no change in feel with a sim when you can?? I know I'm going against the tide here, but I think NKPro's ffb is well.."ok", I tried it, spent time on it and waited to be "blown away" like all the posters around the net say about NKPro's ffb.. and well I just wasnt I'm not saying NKPro's ffb is bad by any means, sure it's pretty decent but then a well sorted rfactor ffb using a combo of leo & realfeel feels "ok" too, admittadly a poorly setup rfactor ffb is ordinary to crap though lol Personally I hope rf2's ffb is better than NKPro, cause like I say I think NKPro is "ok", be good to have something better than that
My guess in what you're asking for is feedback from the tires. Well that is pretty much what I want from a FFB as well. Only time will tell about rF2 FFB.
I don't want to start a new thread so I will append to this one. You know in rF1 when your car flips onto its roof and is sliding along and yet your wheel is still receiving FFB information. If your wheels are not in contact with the ground you should only have (perhaps) some mechanical resistance added to compensate for the steering column and the weight of the wheels turning.. Not directional forces bouncing around. It makes no sense.
That's the why some Mods are absolutely unplayable for me. More than FFB issue which doesn't create counter force enough, the Mod's physics simply ignores the power from the throttle given at the same time you're counter steering. Whatever the car's power, whatever the setup you use, there's a minimum (or absent) effect trying to correct an oveersteering. Powerful race cars are not like that. The powerful engine be, the easier to correct an oversteering. The car starts to spin and will spin forever (actually until it hits a wall or fully stops), whatever you do behind the wheel. There're several aclamade mods which the physics are stupidly bad on the rear car correction
Good point. From where is it calculating those forces that are (from my experience) putting large jolting forces into the steering wheel? Even if you let go of the wheel, it still jolts. Given the chassis is the only thing touching the track, perhaps some of the FFB is calculated using chassis parameters. That's the only thing I can think of (but don't understand how or why).
RealFeel only transmits forces on the steering rack to the wheel. So if you are upside down and you still feel forces on the wheel then the physics engine is applying forces to the rack incorrectly. This is all assuming we are talking about RealFeel and with the canned forces turned off. The car is normally rocking on it's roof which would cause canned forces to come though which is most likely what you are feeling when upside down.
I have always understood that getting a fully true to life experience is impossible within a sim because there are elements involved that can't be calculated or duplicated so the goal is to get it as close as possible to a true to life experience. Some developers will get drivers that really are not well experienced with sim racing so in that aspect I think things get lost in translation. The Ideal situation would be to get drivers well experienced in both real world and sim (like iracing has Dale jr.). IMO I like the FFB that ISI developed for rfactor pretty well and there are plug-ins for outside sources of FFB. Just personally for me I really like the FFB in the Race 07 series the best for the reason of the feeling I get when I need to correct a loose situation and the distinctive wheel impulses without being overpowering. Bottom line we could all take elements that we like from different sims to make up our ultimate gaming experience but remember it's not a perfect world.
great post but... I dont believe this, we already have RealRoad at rf2 and I always believe that future looks bright regarding sims (btw how did you dig up this thread, its...ancient. Perhaps post here? http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/1645-G25-27-horrendous-rattling)
Well even many thousands still leaves you with the sims and ffb wheels we have today or a variation of them. I thought rF1 with my setup was as real as I was going to get until I played rF2. Now that is as real as it will get.. Until something else translates better. It is possible with accurate load cells, a custom steering wheel and some fancy computer work to measure a real racecar's steering output and input as it travels around a track taking into account the steering angle, driver inputs, suspension activity and so on. I think however the results would show a stark contrast to what we all consider force feedback. Just think about if the pulling and pushing forces from hands on the steering wheel were measured. You would need to simulate that as well.
I dont know how some of you guys seem to be able to drive a real car and isolate the feedback through the wheel from everything else going on around you. I do get plenty of feedback from the car in rf2 using a g25 which is still lagging in latest ffb tech. Does it feel the same as a real car, well short answer is no. Mostly due to the lack of speed of the wheel and overall force which I dont think will ever be matched by a sim wheel. In a real car I get so much more feedback from all around me and not just the wheel and its hard to even to try and isolate only the effects felt through the wheel to try and compare it to ffb in a sim. Im getting feedback from motion, through the seat etc. and it all hits you at once. So its very hard for me to say how much I rely on just the wheel feedback in a real car. Would having 100% accurate wheel ffb in a sim make it as easy to drive as a real car. Ofcourse not because the wheel feedback is only a small part of the overall forces your dealing with in a real car. Does in game ffb help me drive the sim car at its limits, yes it sure does. The feedback though a fair way from reality does try and do the same but only hints at forces and you learn to interpret these into how the car handles. The main aim of ffb in sim games i see is to have a realistic feeling (not real feelings just something to let you associate it with reality, if its all wrong the car would be undriveable) and give as much feedback as possible within the limitiations of both the simulator and the wheels hardware. A real wheel can break your fingers in an impact but just hitting a rumble strip hard is a pretty violent action. The wheels self centering helps to feel oversteer quite well but no sim wheels are fast enough to do this properly yet or at least the g25 is a long way from it. As long as the cars behave in a realistic manor close to their real world counterparts, then a sim is surely goin in the right direction. Feel in a sim is on a completely different level to real world so we can try and get closer but its always going to be lacking. And if you rely on a steering wheel for all your force feedback then it will never feek the same as a real wheel. Because what you may think is just wheel feedback is actually everything else going on around you and its hard to say how much you rely on the wheel in real driving. I think its probably less then 20% of the overall image your brain is working with in reality but in a pc sim with just wheel, sound and image its around 50% or more. I have had many real world drivers try my sim setup and many will struggle with the lack of feedback, a good driver in reality will find it very easy to drive any real car but will need to re adjust to be able to drive in a sim for the first time. Nobody said a real car is hard to drive and for a good driver finding the limits in a real car is much easier then in any sim. I still think rf2 beta is way ahead of nkp which the op and a few others always refer to as the greatest sim example, we all can have our own opinions though. As many have said before opinions are like arseholes, we all have one.
1. Dude youve stuck videos up of yourself and your driving skills AT LEAST twice already, give it a bloody rest. 2. I can feel understeer very good in certain sims, in certain mods and with certain wheels. Hell, with GT Legends and a cheap peice of crap Logitech Momo Racing wheel (the cheap black one) I could feel understeer very easily with the completely stock ffb settings for that wheel. In fact I could feel the slight feelings of grip loss before youve gone over the edge, with regards to understeer AND 4 corner brake lockup AND oversteer. I could feel the rear getting just sliiightly light before having an actual oversteer moment. Then I switched to a G25 and suffered massively. The G25 felt much more natural and more like a real car in that game (and all games compared to the black logitech momo), and also allowed me to correct bigger slides better than the cheap momo, BUT DESPITE ALL THAT, I was actually faster and more importantly more consistent when driving on the limit (my limit) with the cheap logitech momo wheel. I guess the developers tuned all the ffb variables and settings so well for that game with that wheel, that a technically much better and realistic wheel like the G25 actually made me slower and less consistent at/near my limit due to giving me less/not as good info regarding the cars 4 corners of grip, again, despite it feeling more realistic and natural when it came to the actual steering feel itself. So that all just proves 1 big important thing to me when it comes to sims (well at least when it comes to me personally, maybe not to you or others), and that is that it is not always how superior or inferior your wheel is, it might not always be how technically on paper realistic the ffb is in a sim, or with regards to how it translates forces to you based on physics or whatever its based on, or how realistic and/or natural the steering itself feels. Its HOW the developers tune a specific peice of game software to work with your specific wheel. 3. Many cars dont have as much "auto" opposite lock when you get into oversteer moments or maybe technically they do but you cant rely on it to correct the car for you like you sometimes see in drifting, its your own work, not the wheel automatically doing its thing. Some sims/mods/ffb and wheel settings wayyyyyyyyy overdo this whole "auto steering opposite lock on oversteer effect" thing. The Historx mod for rFactor 1 for example, for me at least with my belt driven Momo Force Red wheel and "realfeel" on, wayyyyyyyyy over does this effect. It does make you feel and correct the oversteer much better and naturally because the wheel is almost automatically doing the work for you lol. I believe Netkar Pro felt a little over exageratted on this as well, but not overly so to the point that I would really complain about it, but OMG the HistorX mod for rFactor 1, as amazing as it is, and it is pretty amazing, COMPLETELY over does this effect, atleast on my wheel/ffb settings. Every car is different though, so I could be wrong for some cars obviously. Many suspension settings and geometries of actual suspension design layout can make a big difference to this "effect".
@Spinelli -- you do realize that hiohaa's post was from over 9 months ago, right? ...before the first build of rF2 was "released"
