Few Concerning Points about rF2 Discord

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by mantasisg, Mar 2, 2021.

  1. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,126
    Likes Received:
    2,941
    First of all, I think Discord is great, it is awesome and quick way to get in touch, there is usually someone around to have a quick light chat.

    But nature of Discord inevitably makes it like a small circle of friends, which makes it inferior to forums where these circless are less likely to form, especially in mature well behaved forum.

    Also Discord promotes very short and fast responses. It often doesn't go together with anything what requires more than an average sentence. Basically anything slightly philosophical or technical already falls into "difficult" and undesired subject category in there.

    Just in a couple last few days I experienced few unpleasant antagonistic events. First, because I apparently wrote too much in one case. Next because I was misunderstood about what I meant, and attempts to explain myself were useless, it appeared to me that the circle that has formed actually get fueled by going antagonistic against me, so I quit.

    Some worrying points about discord, which I have witnessed in various discords, against myself, or against others:
    • The forming of specific friend circles who then dictates unwritten rules of the conduct.
    • Promoting short and "lightweight" expressions, and suppressing the opposite kind of expressions.
    • The satisfaction of having someone to go antagonistic against, genrally looks like it is quite an entertainment to get into that in various discords, but I witnessed that in Kunos forums too.
    • Well suited environment to form cult-like communities. Which for simulation is very unproductive as there is quite significant faith element to it.
    • Anti-thinking, irrationality effect. Basically a side effect of any slightly more complex expressions being largely unwanted and ineffective in Discord.
    All this being said, I can see Discord being highly useful and positive tool for various community purposes. I just want to say that I wish the best future for this forum. This forum seems like last place I know of reasonable maturity, reasonable attitude towards thinking - philosophical and technical. This forum is also last place of democratic attitude for different views, a place where people can disagree against eachother without getting disrepectful while discussing complex problems, and they also can get deeper into subjects than just with six word sentences.

    Unfortunately and inevitably it does seem like antagonism, fanboyism (sectarianism) and quick small small talk chatty messages are bleeding into here, but I hope that good values will remain. I think if any place can lead to high quality community it is this place, not the Discord.
     
    RoboCAT10, jGer0705, Korva7 and 2 others like this.
  2. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    877
    Likes Received:
    921
    The signal to noise ratio of rFactor 2 #general is extremely low but if that means that all the wibble is there and not in this forum that's a good thing.
     
    mantasisg likes this.
  3. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2021
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    50
    So i posted this video on discord, during physics discussion ->

    asking if the T1 behaviour is realistic or not
    IMG_9530.jpg

    And this follows->
    IMG_9531.jpg
    IMG_9532.jpg
    IMG_9533.jpg
    IMG_9534.jpg
    IMG_9535.jpg

    Official RULES ->
    IMG_9536.jpg

    Well then, now i wait if this is "fixed" or just ends up getting trolled at discord.

    @Christopher Elliott @Marcel Offermans
    @Paul Jeffrey
     
  4. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2021
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    50
    S397 devs know your true audience, people who actually want RF2 to improve. These people are quite basically ruining official platform.
    Can you guys control such behaviour ? so that some of us who REALLY cares about RF2 can voice their opinion, experience without getting attacked ?
     
    RoboCAT10, sf4JC and juanchioooo like this.
  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    9,004
    Likes Received:
    4,131
    This is going too far.
     
  6. Elcid43

    Elcid43 Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2020
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    51
    I personally don't get Discord myself. Why have this organized forum then?

    And I agree, that isn't a good look for RF2.
     
    RoboCAT10, Kelju_K, sf4JC and 2 others like this.
  7. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2021
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    50
    Oh yes this completely normal reaction i got for my post. This isn't even the first time where i got such reactions, when i criticise about physics or sound or anything else.
     
  8. TJones

    TJones Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    197
    There's a missing rule in the "rule" section of rF2 Discord:
    "* Do not write about simulation physics in general, especially not negative about rFactor 2."
    The example above from @Sim_Player shows clearly , ther's a large tendency
    to turn physic related contributions into ridiculus. Especially if it leeds to letting show rF2 in a "not so positive" light.
    I find this quite irritating. AFAIK, most of the community members are adults, and as such should behave so.
    Somehow strange fact: At Discord are now 29 channels for whatever you may think of, but not a single one about vehicle physics.

    I'm wondering a bit how S397 priorize vehicle physics in this racing simulation game, if I count inprovements over the last couple of years, or for example looking at the amount of contribution of staff members towards this direction.
    But of course I can see the necessity, to work on/improve other, lets say more comercial related areas of rF2 to keep the project going at least.

    I'm quite unsure with english language, so I wont contribute much here and even less in that fast writing Discord enviroment. So no worries!:)
     
  9. Highlandwalker

    Highlandwalker Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    1,559
    I've only just bothered to read this thread, it seems like another good reason to stay away from discord. I went to discord once and found you have to read through so much crap to find any thing of interest, just can't see the point of it. I've better ways to spend my time on.
     
    RoboCAT10, Kelju_K, sf4JC and 6 others like this.
  10. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2021
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    50
    discord in itself is nice idea. but it is ruined by this "group".
    they literally bullied the @mantasisg out of there, showing no respect at all.
    even when he was gone they continued to make fun of him.
    Such a amazing platform completely ruined.
     
    RoboCAT10 and sf4JC like this.
  11. RaceNut

    RaceNut Registered

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    363
    I have to wonder if we had 100% absolute verified data to prove any sim is truly accurate, would any one of them qualify? I seriously doubt it. I think we'd all be very disappointed in the results (enter Favorite sim) if we knew for certain.

    simulation
    [ˌsimyəˈlāSH(ə)n]
    NOUN
    1. imitation of a situation or process.
      • the action of pretending; deception.
        "clever simulation that's good enough to trick you"
      • the production of a computer model of something, especially for the purpose of study.

    There is reality, and then there are various iterations of simulating it (imitations). To put it another way, to discuss the validity of any given Simulation is to argue which version is more or less a false-reality.

    So, wanting to engage in the study and discussion of simulation is one thing. Taking that too far, as if it should be absolute fact and prove some right and others wrong, is simply not productive. I suspect that's why so many have no appetite for physics discussions, they ultimately lead nowhere after endless "chasing our own tails". What's worse, is when they lead to verbal confrontation. Name-calling should never be accepted. Reasonable discussions in the common interest of advancement of simulation need not degrade into a derogatory "tit for tat" insult competition - IF - we maintain some proper perspective.

    At some point, perhaps we are better able to enjoy our Sim's (as intended) in "pretense" mode, rather than expecting "reality".



    And remember, the Great Creator says . . . "Reality and All Your Simulation Are Belong To Us". :p:D
     
    4F0X4 likes this.
  12. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,126
    Likes Received:
    2,941
    I just wish that we remain friendly and civilised in the first place, secondly - intelligent, curious, interested and capable to communicate on complex subjects. Then there will always be something interesting, valuable, important and right said frequently.

    It depends on what people find worthy attention and interesting. I would say perhaps community of top simulator should be interested in realism, but it is not as much the case as one would expect.

    I myself find pure faith and pure acceptance of anything created by human incredibly dull and demotivating. I mean, whats the point then if we have to "just believe" anything that is labeled a simulation. Why should one not see something that maybe is very obvious, why it is bad to talk it out ? It doesn't mean that simulation is disapproved if something is suspected to be incorrect, it depends on the magnitudes and amount of doubts. Following that, it doesn't mean that simulation should be incredibly accurate and necessary to be data proven. First of all, it has to be principally correct, if things can be told being off just by looking at basic observable dynamics and not measuring anything, it has to be agreed that better job perhaps could be done depending on what simulation allow and reasoning of observations, and rF2 allow a lot of simulation. Such talk IMO should interest any simracer, but why it does not is beyond me, even more so - resisted, it is ridiculous. Getting on the train of faith and belief is so dull IMO, not only that, IMO it is absolutely disappointing to those who does good observations, has reasonable ideas and last but not least - actually makes great suff. Whats the point of making great things if it is met the same way as some half baked creations with super noticeable doubts about them, that are not even being talked about. Why would then put effort to do a good job if it is appreciated as much as average stuff ? Even worse - what if average stuff turns out to be chosen over high effort stuff ? And why is it so, isn't it because all communication/media channels of simulations lacks some basic sense that should belong in simulation subject to get it straight and clear ?

    It is not that talking realism should somehow spoil the fun, it is about that it should improve the fun. And of course talking physics is not a children business, but as much as I am aware we are mostly adult males, and we should not get sad over little disagreement which is of course inevitable when talking about such complex subjects, yet it should be interesting and eye opening - for appreciating great stuff, and getting an idea if something could be better. IMO it is interesting, but why so much resistance, I'll never know.
     
    Korva7, Kelju_K, sf4JC and 2 others like this.
  13. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    912
    Likes Received:
    1,929
    The problem with most people is that they don't have the tendency to agree on something but to disagree on something just for the sake of it and admitting that one is wrong seems like one of the biggest issues that people face nowadays, because society tells them that any sign of weakness makes you a less worthy infividual. Thatswhy we - the community - get involved in far too many discussions that lead nowhere chasing our own tail, as Racenut described it perfectly. And I am no less guilty of it, thatswhy I am writing this post. :D

    I mean, just look at the discussion that I had with the russian dude about the beauty/ugliness of rF2, wich is a very subjective topic on it's own. But once you get to the point of objectivity and ask him simple stuff like, if his world looks purple or not, you suddenly get no answer because it would make his argumentation fall apart. As with the graphics, that should be no less based on physical principles btw, discussing graphics engines and physics engines is often steered by very subjective opinions and seldom based on scientific facts. And I find it sometimes tiresome to wade through the same mud of nonesense that get's posted, no matter wich sim we are talking about. You can have the best chain of arguments but people allmost never find a compromise.

    And to get the connection to this topic: with Discord it's no different than with forums, just that it happens alot faster. The reason why you don't see S397 dealing with it as they should is pretty simple. Do you expect Marcel or any of the guys to search through hundreds of messages when they have more important stuff to do, like actually fixing the game in all of it's facettes, not just our desired feature XYZ or dealing with a grumpy discord user. I don't do that's for sure. Last time someone asked why they hired Paul when there is other more important manpower and competence needed, after this forum has been declared dead by some users and as there has been complaints about the General channel on Discord. It's a General Channel on a discord server, so if you can't deal with the fact that they discuss Pizzas in their gang environment then it's time to move on. Simple as that. I am not stating that the above posted discussion shouldn't be dealt with, but I would have simply reported the user to Paul in a private message and went on with my business.

    Understanding a social media platform like Discord is no less a lesson to learn as reading a book about physics. ;)
     
    TJones, Lazza and pkelly like this.
  14. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,126
    Likes Received:
    2,941
    @hitm4k3r You may say that there were many discussions that lead nowhere but it may not be an absolute truth. Depending on content of the discussions and their subjects they may have positive results for everyone who seriously take part in them or follow with deep interest and concern. When there is something noticeably different or new, and subjects are rather complex it can take weeks, months or even years to change mind or get an idea in the first place. Perhaps sometimes not even consciously, not even understanding what exactly influenced your thinking, probably a lot of things combined. That is because it can take time for everything to start making sense, observing evidence and joining the dots to start getting trustful view. Even more difficult to rewrite some existing perception/knowledge, people are and should be stubborn to stay with what they believe and think, it is totally fair, why would anyone change mind or accept anything very easily when they still could be right ?

    There are only benefits of healthy discussions and knowledge sharing. Even if you don't "win". In no particular order: a) you practice your knowledge and make it more optimized and sharper; b) you may learn shortcomings of your knowledge, identify where you need improvement; b) you may learn that you are wrong and that is a win; c) you reinforce your knowledge and weaken wrong one; d) simply discovering new things as a result of discussion.

    Perhaps competitive, egoistic spirit of some of us may not be as useful in discussions as it is when trying to win a race. But I am ready to battle any argument that goes against talking about physics, realism and any of those "complicated" subjects. I see no harm only benefits. In fact, I see harm in stopping those talks, sabotaging or suppressing them in any particular way. There are people who has knowledge, great or not as great, and they are willing to share it, and test it, why not ? Why disrespect it ?
     
    sf4JC likes this.
  15. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,747
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    Happy to talk about those things. Issue I have with physics discussions is that at some point you go round in circles and you end up having the same discussions over and over again.

    the movie Groundhog Day springs to mind XD

    but: if people aren’t willing to be civil, or allow themselves to be helped, then they shouldn’t get surprised that people join them on their level. Not saying that’s what happened, but it does.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  16. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,126
    Likes Received:
    2,941
    @AMillward If you'd try to read into some at least partially technical stuff being written, you'd find out that sometimes levels are higher than you suppose them to be. Often it is enough to read what people write, and try to understand it. But instead you guys stigmatize anybody who isn't "privileged" to possibly know more than you, although they could possibly know more than you, or at least have a point, a direction leading the right way. I get it, we racers are a bit egoistic, we must be first, the best... But what I witness is initiative of suppressing those who stand out. I am not sure if I could interpret that as "help", no wonder they don't use such help.

    Also going round in circles is not a law, it is not happening so all the time, arguably not even most of the time. Many people leave with a lot more aligned views and with more things to think about, if they just have any interest of what other point of view has to offer or bothers to put any effort in reinforcing their own thinking. Usually it just doesn't happen immediately. There is no problem to agree to disagree. And what would you call not going in circles ? If everyone would sign up to some kind of declaration by hand ? It is already enough that people practice thinking, logic and curiosity.

    @Will Mazeo The "50 pages rolling thread" in here along with few similar threads that followed it actually contained of quite a bit of very valable and interesting contributions. And I guess not everybody sits turned on the discord for whole day, so it is not a coincidence to miss an opportunity to participate in interesting discussion (another big flaw of Discord). Perhaps you guys would have found your "victim" agreeing with some things you say. And not selectively disagreeing, because it is YOU who said that.
     
    Kelju_K and sf4JC like this.
  17. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,747
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    I don’t stigmatise anyone. I’ll help people if they ask for it and don’t claim to know everything cos I don’t.

    If people cause trouble, then I’ll take them on. People who have a civil discussion will get the answers they ask for or the help they need.
     
  18. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    9,004
    Likes Received:
    4,131
    I do have to apologise. I can see how what I wrote could be misconstrued.

    Let me rephrase: this thread is going too far.

    Why?

    Because discord is a flowing discussion, off the cuff comments, silly memes. That's its nature.

    What you've posted above contains one offensive word. You can surely complain about that if you want, and no worries. But to come here and act like you've been bullied, and for Manta to come here and talk about being bullied, when the worst that has happened (beside that offensive word) is some frank and robust discussion, is disingenuous.

    It can perhaps seem a bit less civil than a forum discussion, because the reaction tends to be immediate rather than given some more thought (and some tact inserted), but when people make illogical and poorly thought out assertions about physics, over and over and over and over again (despite direct contradiction based on proper observation and measurement) people will lose their patience.

    Manta is, from what I've seen, less guilty of making rash assumptions (sometimes seems to be unaware of how some rF2 physics works, but no harm in not knowing something you don't know) but his 'incident' was a nothing as well. I don't know why this thread was made. It's like one kid losing a game and running home to whine to their Mummy.

    Sure there's a regular crowd in discord, but it's not hard to talk with them or even around them if necessary (including all the memes).

    Do we need some sort of instruction on conversation here? It's not that hard.
     
  19. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,747
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    That was out of line and no need for it.
     
  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    9,004
    Likes Received:
    4,131
    I do have to answer this directly: what's been shown to you here doesn't reflect the whole conversation.

    Sim_Player keeps making assertions that are demonstrably false - both with telemetry and practical experience. When told this, yet again, he went back to the above video (which doesn't assert or prove anything of that nature), which has been long discussed both here and in discord previously.

    Hence the "enough is enough" response.

    Many of that same group of regulars will, and have, talked about the shortcomings of rF2 physics. What they dismiss are falsehoods.
     

Share This Page