Fantasy Car Grand Prix

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Johannes Rojola, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    This is continuation from this thread: http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/18022-Importance-of-sim-racing-on-its-own-vs-accuracy-to-IRL

    I wanted to get more exposure for this idea by starting a new specific thread and a get a feel if there is any real interest. This is not originally my idea, I've seen it been discussed from time to time at these forums.

    The idea is that a capable modders create race cars within some rather *loose technical rules. Then these cars are raced against each other by real drivers from the community or by the engineer himself. Winning team would get a real money price, which to I am willing to personally contribute as I see this kind of event very interesting.

    What I would like to see, is a nice field of unique cars both technically AND visually. Then a race event with proper live broadcast.

    *We are not limited by real world so it is possible to try something more extraordinary, within the limits of the rF2 engine of course. Sure there would be some regulations so that some physics loopholes cannot be exploited too much.


    I personally could be seeing myself organizing this but not maybe completely alone. I have ran quite successful offline racing management game back in late 90s, so I have some insight of how much or little work there is to be done.


    Please discuss.
     
  2. Adrian

    Adrian Registered

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    I had this idea sometime ago as well. Someone would create a set of tires and an engine, and there would have to be a set aero drag too.

    I don't think money would be a good idea as I'd like to see Isi enter a team, competing against them might draw in some of the bigger mod teams.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
     
  3. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    This is a fantastic idea. Modding teams need to get on board and I can see the live stream generating lots of traffic- commercialization (ads) might pay the prize money too.
     
  4. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    Well I am happy to see if people participate even without any monetary price, it is just there to hopefully generate more commitment and interest.
     
  5. Coutie

    Coutie Moderator Staff Member

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    Could you design any car you want? If so, you could have some funny results, like driving toilets or something. I would be interested in something like that.
     
  6. PMC

    PMC Registered

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    Like this ?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    Well I guess nothing but your dignity stops you to design a toilet-car. Depending on how the regulations would go, there might some aero considerations so that toilet would not be maybe the most efficient form.
     
  8. Hedlund_90

    Hedlund_90 Registered

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    "Toilet-car" rofl
    Not really interested in driving them but could be fun to watch...
     
  9. Nimugp

    Nimugp Registered

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    You guys mean like this??? (starts at 15 sec)

     
  10. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    The point of this is a serious competition of modding groups and their drivers, not a stupid toilet grand prix. Think more like f1 unlimited and less Mario kart undignified.

    No green turtles, no toilets but making a machine that is the ultimate in performance within the confines of the game engine but still driveable by a real sim racer.
     
  11. alpha-bravo

    alpha-bravo Registered

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    Interesting idea.
    I'm not sure maybe it is to early at this point to ask this and it would be better to discuss it later?
    If not then here is my question:
    What should or could be limited and where are the limits of the rF2 engine ?
     
  12. Capeta

    Capeta Registered

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    The idea is good, but almost impossible to realise.
    We don't have a federation to check if everything is going to be allright and the aero, choice of shape on the cars doesn't make them fast, the numbers in the files does.
     
  13. Axly

    Axly Registered

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    Sounds quite a lot like the prototype desert rally classes, but on track.... Very interesting. :)
     
  14. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    While I like this idea in general, I don't believe anyone really appreciates how much effort it would take to organize such competition and how badly it could fail (by becoming ridiculous) if not organized well.

    First question you need to ask yourselves is at what level this design competition should be done?

    You could provide car template, with lots of upgrades and setup options included. Every upgrade could add extra components to cars or improve certain parameters at expense of others (give more powerful engine at expense of car mass and fuel consumption, for example).
    As for setup options - you would have to define a price on each setup setting and give a budget for each car.
    Having this base for physics, 3D modelling and sounds could be done independently.

    This way, you would have no ridiculous designs and everyone would operate within some boundaries. Of course you would have to make sure people are using the same setups they have provided, so I'm not sure if direct racing will be possible.

    On the other hand, if you want to give bigger freedom of design, you're in for a huge amount of work preparing rules and environment for such competition.
    Think aerodynamics, for example. In reality it's about creating better shapes, that give more downforce and less drag. If rFactor you pretty much provide both values, so where's the challenge? :) It would be fantastic if contenders would have to provide shape of car that would be then put through CFD software in order to determine it's aerodynamic properties. Results would be put into rF2 and that's that
    But think of organizational challenges and time frame for such approach.

    I believe you can only run such contest with limited design abilities, based on setup and upgrades. Something more ambitious will require huge amount of work, resources and knowledge.

    So don't get carried away :) It's not as simple and fun as it looks.

    Well, careful what you wish for ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2014
  15. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    There has to be bigger freedom, within some reasonable limits. The biggest issue of course is going to be aerodynamics in relation to car shapes, and I also thought of using software for 3d object aero calculations. But I don't know any software (free) doing this.

    (1) Aerodynamics is one area where I could see some sort of templates or strict regulations in place.

    (2) We should also look into engine simulation and stop people to exploit it too much.

    (3) Tires would come directly from ISI. No modding there.

    (4) There would be maximum front and rear track defined, and then the whole car needs to be fit inside a given measurements.

    The evaluation of designs is big work to be done, but there quite probably won't be hundreds of cars to be evaluated. Also if and when regulations are well thought out, it makes the work of evaluation easy and fast. If something is not regulated, we won't check it. It gives room for loopholes, but that's how it goes in real racing too.

    Ridiculous designs like TOILET could be just disqualified without further evaluation. Competitors should work withing spirit of the race. It is essential that the GP feels and looks some what serious, and that competitors approach it like that.


    Because it might sound like too much of work, it is not real reason to abandon the idea first hand.
     
  16. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    True. I only want to make sure people responsible will be aware how much work it is :)
    Sometimes people are very enthusiastic at the beginning, but facing difficulties and large amounts of work, that they have not expected, they simply give up and everyone ends up dissapointed.

    I think it's better to make sure people are aware of that in the beginning. If it scares them off, then we saved ourselves some dissapointment. If they're up for it, then all the better :)
     
  17. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    Well that is true for both organizing the race and those participating. We have to prove to modders that this race is worth of participating, while also modders and drivers commit to their work. It doesn't matter how well the thing is organized if the starting grid is empty. That's why this general discussion of this topic as I want to know if there even is enough interest. So far some interested spectators :D
     
  18. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    The only way I see this working, with the same rules for all, without cheating and so on, is to build a utility, with a large library of parts, some with customizable characteristics, some with fixed ones, this tool would allow you to assemble your car, position all the element that are needed to make it work, and when you are done, bake a car compatible with the appropriate mod in which everyone will race with his car.
    In this optic, it is surely much easier than making people work from scratch and then decide if they respected the rules. The tool would need to be advanced enough to allow to tweak the suspension geometry of the car, and the carbody meshes, to blend them together and to be sure that every component of the car is inside the boundaries of the car itself. This is the only way in which you can apply some kind of rules, like number of wings, position of wings, and their dimensions, width , lenght and other main data for the car.
    It is surely doable, but I see it a serious piece of programming.
     
  19. Galaga

    Galaga Banned

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    seems like it would make sense to have a few standard engines to choose from like IRL, especially since creativity is not challenge here b/c like others have said you can dictate performance, weight, etc. so not an area for design excellence
     
  20. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    The idea is not to replicate IRL, but more like anything goes philosophy as long as it can be done with rF2 and does not violate some basic regulations. I agree that engine modding is not so difficult and in the end there is not much you can do, but if someone wants to make 10000 bhp engine with bizarre torque curve then go for it. Another thing is if there is any capable driver to pilot such thing together with standard ISI tires in use.

    Through regulations we can force things such driveline inertia or fuel consumption for example, but they might not even be necessary. It is just a matter of planning out what to regulate, what not. And then stick to it. It will be the same for every competitor of course, and then it is just combination of modding skill and driver who can pilot that car to get maximum performance. Quite likely we are talking about vehicles going over 600kmh on straightaways, and we don't want to stop that happening.
     

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