Extremely Dangerous Unexpected Behavior in rF2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by prceurope, Jun 2, 2021.

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  1. R Soul

    R Soul Registered

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    Both of these are needed. A slightly different suggestion: There's already a countdown when switching from AI control to user control. In that period the game could tone down the overall FFB strength to 5% (of the user's normal setting) while it aligns the wheel, with a graphical cue so users knows it's deliberate. But as suggested originally, the strength could then gradually go back to the user's level after they resume control.

    Leaving the pits and restarting a race are other predictable scenarios where the user's wheel might be significantly out of position. Someone mentioned glitches, which will be harder to account for, but generally the game should be able to detect when FFB turns on and respond accordingly.

    It doesn't matter if the EULA says "use at your own risk". S397 have been informed of an oversight that could lead to an injury. The decent thing to do is to come up with a solution.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
  2. Mangoletsi

    Mangoletsi Registered

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    Just educated myself Eric Igmar Weijers, I'm sick and disgusted reading about your past. No wonder why you troll the internet stalking victims.
     
  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I suspect a simple ramp up to full power from zero, probably with a different time period for jumping in the car vs taking over from AI, would suffice. Slightly more sophisticated would be to check how far away the wheel is at the start and tailor the time accordingly - that way when you learn to mimic the AI steering before taking over, you get proper forces immediately (or close to it).

    From a design point of view this sort of solution is much less complex than the discussion in this thread, which is overly emotive on both ends.
     
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  4. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    Nothing wrong with my past dude.
    Hope you enjoyed it.
     
  5. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    Good suggestion.

    "Overly emotive." Interesting choice of words. Being told that your legitimate concern is not a concern because of EULAs and hindsight-as-wisdom justifies some degree of opprobrium.

    In any case, I will submit this as a bug and we'll see if S397 pays enough attention or cares enough to do anything about it.
     
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  6. R Soul

    R Soul Registered

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    Bump.

    I think this thread needs to stay at the top till the situation is either rectified we at least get some response.
     
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  7. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Kinda feels like one of those Honey Traps lawyers are so fond of. "We went to the official forum and informed them what a dangerous situation they had created. And yet, they did nothing....TREBLE DAMAGES Yer HONOR!!!"
     
  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    [OT joke]

    "Your honor, our physics engine hasn't had any substantial changes since 2012 when direct drive wheels were a pipe dream for all but the most extreme of users - and they understood the necessary precautions."

    [/OT joke]

    :p
     
  9. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    Creative use of the term "honey trap." My initial post not only contained sufficient signal words in the title that an active moderator will take note of, I also put the "trap" in plain sight:

    ...as well as offering a solution.

    I don't understand why you have attributed a nefarious aim to me. Seems pretty absurd for you to have done so.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @prceurope while I agree 'honey trap' doesn't make sense, I wouldn't arc up too much to that post - dave's pretty harmless, he's not making accusations.

    I'll take this opportunity to reply to this:

    From the thread title, which you're deliberately making attention grabbing, yes, overly emotive. This behaviour of rF2 is only dangerous ('extremely' being a matter of perspective) when you plug in a wheel that produces much more power than any consumer wheel did when rF2 was released (and this behaviour hasn't changed over that time). As I already said, this is annoying for most people, not dangerous. I agree it's an issue, and it should be raised (I certainly hadn't considered what it might lead to when a much stronger wheel does what mine already does), but when you make it sound like rF2 comes with such a wheel and then tries to break your wrists with it, people will start taking the opposing view with a bit more enthusiasm.
     
  11. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I used the phrase Honey Trap because I could not think of the term that might be used by legal experts.(a comon problem I seem to have more and more as I trudge through my '60's.) Whether it is absurd or nefarious, I do not know, just something that crossed my mind.
    Might be more of an insight into my thought process than yours.
     
  12. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    Better close this one also.
    Going around in circles of emotion..
    Point is more than clear, there is gear damage and/or physical damage possible in the current situation.
    and what is done with it is not up to us.
    Closing the thread also prevents it being bumped.
    Problem solved.
     
  13. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    Assuming the moderators have taken note. The absence of developer input on an official forum is a bit strange - I see much more activity from other studios elsewhere.

    Is that fair? It "tries?"

    They support DD wheels with the exact profile of my wheel. Supporting an integration and not thoroughly checking the UX, when 15+ Nm DD wheels have been around for at least 10 years is a bit of a lame QA approach and is irresponsible. I run a software firm, I know what happens when we support new 3rd party integrations that are core to the proper functioning of our offering.

    "Unexpected behaviour" is not the same as "deliberately injurious design."

    p.s. it is extremely dangerous if you use your hands to earn your living and you could end up with a broken wrist or a dislocated elbow. There is a massive difference between the ability of the hands and forearms to withstand forces when the individual in question is prepared, engaged and aware. When your (generally weaker) hand is relaxed and resting on the wheel and it spins unexpectedly with full force, it's extremely dangerous and anyone who downplays that is, quite frankly, either a troll or incapable of empathy, or both.

    Thanks for the clarification. A legal similarity is "perjury trap." Honey trap is using women to extract information or setting up compromising situations by the action of the target party. Think Alexander Nix.

    Legal trapdoor shenanigans are usually much more subtle than the approach I took, because, by design, they hope to go undetected by the developer.

    Hopefully they will acknowledge the oversight and fix it in the next release.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
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  14. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Agreed it’s very important issue and should have higher priority than PBR shaders on another track, not much to add to this discussion.
    There’s third option: blind fanboys who will defend most absurd issues and bugs, and not have courage to admit they were wrong. When and if it’d get fixed (I seriously hope it won’t take years) will they still say it wasn’t rF2 responsibility?

    There’s a similar issue in RaceRoom at the start of a multiplayer race and they still haven’t fixed it.

    If you have SC2 there’s a safety mechanism: hands off protection , which can alleviate such issues
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
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  15. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    It's even allowed over here for people to openly attack each other and go through personal stuff to try and make a point...
    Because of my opinion about the subject safety!!
    Got little to hide, but No moderating necessary it seems.
    I like the game and team behind it, and the effort that is put into it over the years and still.
    Lol..but seems pretty clear to me this is not first priority somehow.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  16. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    They have spent almost 5 years working on a half finished new UI, we recognize rF2 has plenty of issues, which includes this DD wheel problem, but we have spent so long waiting for even the smallest of fixes that we just don't understand anyone who seems to 'want something done now.' Not a slight against you or others supporting this point, but our expectations have been pulverized. We drive with what they have produced and wait for the rest.
    But just a thought that only just now popped in my head. If DD users KNOW this is a hazard, why do they keep insanely high torque settings? If the choice is my wrists or my fancy wheel, I turn things down, waaay down.
     
  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    No point owning a DD and not using it like a DD.

    I absolutely understand the timing thing, but this seems something that should be fairly high on a priority list when it's brought to the devs attention - not because of potential liability (I'm certainly not a lawyer, but I suspect something about setting up a 10+Nm device and then hiding it from yourself with a VR headset, would perhaps limit the potential damages you could claim...) but simply because it's not going to encourage people to keep playing your game if you don't properly support the users and their devices.

    But on that note, we still have JSON file corruption which completely bricks the game (until the user works out how to fix it, because a complete uninstall/reinstall won't do it) yet has a quite simple workaround in lieu of a fix, and that's been... 3 years? So yeah, timing...
     
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  18. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    If this is something only DD users have problems with and even not all of them then what is the percentage of the userbase affected?
    You need some popular youtuber to get hurt because of this issue. Until then I think there are much more important stuff that affects much bigger percentage of users.
     
  19. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    First of all, this is a unknown hazard.
    And a hazard you do not find anywhere else.
    And again, A servo puts out the full amount of available torque at any speed you throw at it.
    So when the feedback kicks you from encoder value 10000 to 0, it tries to achieve that instantly with e.g. the full 10 Nm (50% setting)
    This is not a brushed motor with a gear system and very low holding power
    It's also not a "fancy" thing btw.
    It's also not to show off, or to brag about gear...
    When you'd try a DD you'd understand why they are sold a lot these days and are very popular.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  20. Maarten Nauta

    Maarten Nauta Registered

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    Ah im glad to see this thread. It ridiculous to see the stuff they are working on in their roadmap instead of this. Its downright dangerous, i run with the torque key not in the wheel so limited to 7-8Nm but even then....
     
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