Extremely Dangerous Unexpected Behavior in rF2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by prceurope, Jun 2, 2021.

Tags:
  1. lagg

    lagg Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,418
    Likes Received:
    1,478
    We don't know what the majority of rF2 users want.
     
  2. EricW

    EricW Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    85
    In this case/topic there seem to be a substantial part of the users who feel the strong need to argue or question the topic subject.
    Which i find in some ways hilarious.
     
    avenger82 and Pawel44 like this.
  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    9,483
    Likes Received:
    4,511
    Judging the majority of rF2 users by some posts in a forum thread is hilarious.

    I think that for the majority of users it's an annoyance. For those with very powerful wheels it's more likely to be a serious issue. I think it's a good point to raise. I see no reason it couldn't be rectified, and I hope it gets added to the list.

    I certainly don't see any downsides to such a solution. I don't see anyone here providing any, either.
     
  4. EricW

    EricW Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    85
    Just as hilarious or ignorant as some reactions people get on this forum, even from longtime members.
     
    Pawel44 likes this.
  5. lagg

    lagg Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,418
    Likes Received:
    1,478
    [​IMG]
     
    EricW likes this.
  6. Pawel44

    Pawel44 Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2020
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    25
    I have a feeling you're discussing with a troll. If someone smashes his face he'll be taking three parts independently into account: his face, attacker's fist and attacker itself. He'll never figure out which one is responsible. There's probably too much fluorine in the water..
     
    EricW and prceurope like this.
  7. lagg

    lagg Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,418
    Likes Received:
    1,478
    Ok, you are right.
    It is always somebody else's fault and i'm a troll.
     
  8. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,183
    Likes Received:
    912
    Easy answer: how do all other sims handle that situation?
     
  9. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    121
    EULAs are pointless in this discussion. They are a contract between two parties, and it's up to a judge to determine if both parties are fulfilling their side of the contract. If your wheel spins 360 degrees in a few miliseconds and damages your hand, because of a random glitch, or is associated with the virtual car hitting a wall at 200 mph, that's a responsibility that you accept as the end-user.

    If your wheel performs the same behaviour because the software is designed to immediately trigger the same rotation (at maximum force) when a menu item is clicked, without any warning, then the software is irresponsibly engineered, and the End User's Agreement to the License does not cover this type of negligent design and lack of QA.

    To argue the contrary smacks of trolling and/or shilling.

    p.s. consider that sometimes the law in question is European law, not the USA. Studio 397 is based in the Netherlands.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  10. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    121
    You are arguing in bad faith by citing examples and analogies that aim to deflect from the primary point: when a menu item is clicked and performs a potentially injurious action, without any warning, it is an irresponsible and dangerous design flaw because the wheel's rotation, with maximum force, is not an expected behaviour associated with operating this kind of software.

    I know it is en vogue on the internet, especially in the 2020s, to argue for amusement and grandstanding when you actually fully or mostly agree with the premise. I ask you to have the decency to resist the temptation when there clearly is a dangerous design flaw in this feature, and it is dangerous to people who have never played this game and/or never clicked on the "Restart Race" menu item.
     
    avenger82 and Pawel44 like this.
  11. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    121
    Automobilista 2 does not behave like this. That's the only other sim I use with any regularity.
     
  12. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    121
    Thank you for continually being a voice of reason on this forum.

    Users have posted on this thread that even with settings turned down and on less powerful wheels, the flipping action is quite violent.

    Solutions have been suggested earlier in the thread:
    • easing/smoothing algorithms that slowly return the wheel to neutral (and a cooldown timer to allow the user to get their hands into a position to match the autopilot wheel position on the Fast Rolling Start)
    • a pop-up modal warning the user to return the wheel to neutral (and using the calibration widget to show the user where their wheel is currently positioned with respect to neutral)
    I would not be pointing this out purely for sport. It was a shocking thing to have happen when clicking on "Restart Race," which I can only do with one hand on the mouse and one on the wheel.

    Thankfully I am not a virtuoso violinist, but I do think it's a good idea not to tempt fate and be the first sim title on the planet to (avoidably) dislocate the thumb of either a famous person whose hands are integral to their profession/artistry, or to a lawyer with a lot of free time, based either in Germany or Holland.
     
  13. Jascha

    Jascha Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2021
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    Yeah its a problem. Like crash FFB its unnecessary. Iracing and ACC got rid of it and everybody (including myself) thinks its a welcome change.
     
    avenger82 likes this.
  14. Mangoletsi

    Mangoletsi Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    525
    Likes Received:
    126
    The OP's stance is that the software (rFactor2) is completely at fault. The software technology has been around for 10-20+ years, long before the SimCube DD technology ever exhisted.

    rFactor 2 was made before the DD wheel technology exhisted, they didn't have a time machine, so cant produce software designed to cater for something that didn't exhist.

    Automobilista 2, was created after/during the introduction of SimCube DD technology. They knew what technology was emerging around them, and designed the software accordingly.

    For me it's a case of SimCube should issue the warning, as they designed a product that has un expected behaviour with very long established software.
     
  15. EricW

    EricW Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    85
    What kind of strange argument is this?
    I designed products 30 years ago.
    But still sell them.
    Just like RF2 is being bought on this very moment.
    My products need to comply to current EU safety rules, requirements, regulations and laws.
    When something happens to a user, they come over to check my files and the entire process to determine who's at fault.

    And apart from that it's in my own interest and personal honour to be 100% sure to avoid such a situation.
    I really don't understand people (understatement) who seem to find feasible contradictional arguments.
    And if you like to troll...
    You picked a wrong subject.
    Makes you look extremely silly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  16. EricW

    EricW Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    85
    The Simucube has gone through the entire process I described.
    I even suspect they suffered a release delay because of regulation compliances.
    It's virtually impossible within the EU to release a product outside of the regulations.
    It's a game controller that uses user and software input.
    Both can make mistakes out of the range of their risk analysis.
     
  17. Mangoletsi

    Mangoletsi Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    525
    Likes Received:
    126
    @EricW
    As your being very obscure about your product, which has apparently been around 30+ years.
    I don't really have a response, as i dont believe anything you have posted, relates to this topic.
     
  18. EricW

    EricW Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    85
    Well..my advice, get educated.
     
  19. stonec

    stonec Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    3,286
    Likes Received:
    1,402
    rF2 has been around for 10 years and DD wheels for 5+ years. If this was such a big issue I'm just a bit surprised nobody has noticed it over the years. I also wonder if the game really sends out max FFB signal to center the wheel, or does it just tell the wheel to center and the wheel driver logic then determines that centering should be done with max signal? If it's the latter, it could be argued the wheel through its own drivers should limit the centering force that gets applied in such situation.
     
  20. EricW

    EricW Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    85
    A controlled Servo is a fairly dumb system without software.
    And it is capable of delivering maximum torque at very low rpm.
    The controller firm/software has a couple of ways to preset some safety features like maximum acceleration and overload detection or peak load settings.
    When you would set it up to be safe in this situation, it would be worthless as a FFB wheel.
     

Share This Page