Extremely Dangerous Unexpected Behavior in rF2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by prceurope, Jun 2, 2021.

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  1. Jascha

    Jascha Registered

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    My solution is to not skip the rolling start...

    But I agree its a flaw, but not a big one. There are ways to work around it.
     
  2. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I think this is a transition that could be solved, it just need to kick in in another part of the loop.
    Now it is the real wheel that is corrected to match the virtual wheel position, it just need to happen in the opposite part, when the virtual wheel is matched to the real one. There must be some "empty" space between AI control and Human control to allow time to match the rotation.
     
  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Even on a cheap wheel the sudden jolt or rotation when the game FFB wakes up would be a good thing to 'fade in' instead. I'm sure it's something of a safety issue with stronger wheels (heck, even on the weak wheels you could get hurt if your hands are in the wrong place). [I'm aware there's at least one vid of someone getting smacked in the face with a wheel... I prefer not to share such things]

    Seems like a good wishlist item. Not too sure where they go though, there's a wishlist section but they gain about as much traction there as they do anywhere else...
     
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  4. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    I don't agree.
    Risk related stuff that can be reduced in any form is mandatory.
     
  5. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    We can reduce the force of the wheel.
    When we bought the DD, we read the safety instructions and that was well explained there.
    If we want more than 20Nm in a wheel we should know well the risks.
     
  6. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    This logic opens the door for any number of excuses for poor UX design and lack of testing, particularly where there is potential physical harm to a paying customer.

    Even 19 Nm with a sudden spike flipping the wheel 180+ degrees in 1ms without any warning while your other hand is on a mouse is unacceptably bad UX design and/or lazy QA.

    Please do not make excuses for what is obviously poor UX and QA because you feel that people should in general be responsible for everything that can possibly happen with a DD wheel.
     
  7. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    We could use the same logical with our reponsibility.
    We want real forces, but only when suit us.
    I think that we have to be consistent with our decissions.
     
  8. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    Glad to hear you do the full safety car lap on the Norschleife.

    Not a big flaw to you personally because you haven't had your thumb ripped simply because you clicked "Restart Race" in an interface and the software developers did not think it's a bad UX to have a DD wheel flip with maximum force when a simple easing algorithm could be applied.

    I always take precautions with my DD - I turn on the e-stop when I need to do anything outside of the game, I take my hands off the wheel when a crash is unavoidable, and I have even edited the JSON files to reduce the spikes from absurd AI behaviour such as the routine t-boning the AI seems incapable of avoiding, as well as the large spikes from some of the kerbing. I have never had any hand injuries and suddenly a poor and lazy design choice nearly dislocates my thumb.

    Yes, with the benefit of hindsight. You do realize it only takes one dislocation or torn thumb tendon to cause significant problems for something that could have been corrected with a few lines of code?
     
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  9. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    I think you're just looking to argue. If your 500bhp car suddenly accelerated at maximum speed in the centre of a village because switching OFF cruise control triggers maximum throttle without warning, and there was no warning label saying to put your foot on the brake when disengaging cruise control, you would still take responsibility for something you did not know about? You bought the 500bhp car, your responsibility to predict that all kinds of crazy nonsense could happen.

    And what if, instead of accelerating, it suddenly slammed on the emergency brake and you cause a huge accident behind you?

    Your responsibility for not imagining that either max throttle or max brake could happen without any warning.

    Yeah, c'mon. You would never hold up your hand and accept that.
     
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  10. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    I don't try to take responsability away of rF2.
    But here are three parts, the DD, rF2 and the user. And all parts are involved.
     
  11. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    Can you honestly say you believe it's acceptable software design in a racing game to require the user to remove their hands from the wheel at all times when doing anything other than driving the virtual car?

    I'm not whining about strong kerbs. I'm not whining about getting hit by the AI every single time I spin. I'm making a cogent point about a dangerous oversight that clearly indicates the developers have not properly tested their own product.
     
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  12. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    I haven't said that. I explained what i do here.
    https://forum.studio-397.com/index....nexpected-behavior-in-rf2.69742/#post-1070180

    If i have the speed of the cruise control of the car configured at 150kph and press the cruise control button, the car will try to reach that speed, independently of where you are. If you are in a city, will be fault of the car?
     
  13. Paulfield

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    EULA
    This End User Access and License Agreement (“EUALA”) is an agreement between you and Studio 397 BV (“S397” or “we” or “us”) in relation to S397’s racing simulation rFactor 2 (the “Software”) and its associated services.

    PLEASE READ THESE “TERMS OF USE” OR “AGREEMENT” CAREFULLY BEFORE USING THE SERVICES OFFERED BY STUDIO397 BV “S397” OR THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT “rFACTOR2”. THIS AGREEMENT SETS FORTH THE LEGALLY BINDING TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR YOUR USE OF rFACTOR2 AND ALL RELATED SERVICES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, ANY FEATURES, CONTENT, APLICATIONS, INSTRUCTIONS, WEBSITES INCLUDING STUDIO-397.COM OR UPDATES, UPGRADES, PATCHES, OR MODIFICATIONS OFFERED FROM TIME TO TIME BY S397 IN CONNECTION THEREWITH (COLLECTIVELY “SERVICE(S)”). BY USING THE PRODUCTS OR SERVICES IN ANY MANNER, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THIS AGREEMENT.


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  14. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    EULAs are pointless.

    It's reported as dangerous software design/bug & UX issue, not as a legal case. Thanks.
     
  15. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    This is the problem. You are not paying attention to the flip that happens when you click "Restart Race". I'm not an imbecile - I can mimic the hand movements. What I cannot do is anticipate that the game will immediately send full peak torque through the wheelbase when clicking "Restart Race" with absolutely no warning.
     
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  16. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    Sorry but you are misrepresenting the analogy. Achieving a particular speed is the express function of cruise control. What is happening in rF2 is a totally unexpected behaviour. I click "Restart Race" not "Reposition Steering Wheel to Neutral ASAP."

    Clicking "Restart Race" should not trigger 180-360 degrees of wheelbase rotation in 1ms with absolutely no warning.

    All they need to do is pop a warning: "Warning: this will reset the steering position to neutral. Make sure your hands are away from the wheel's operating space and that any USB cables won't be affected because the wheel will position at maximum torque as fast as possible. Click OK to proceed."

    We can then debate whether this pretty lazy design choice could be further improved by an easing algorithm that slowly returns the wheel to neutral prior to triggering the race restart.

    This should not be so hard to understand.
     
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  17. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    Don't personalize, please.
    I'm not attacking you.
     
  18. Paulfield

    Paulfield Registered

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    EULAs are pointless. No they are not. They are there for a reason so if you don't like their software don't use it. You where the one stating about a lawyer in your first post , '' It's an extremely dangerous UX oversight on your part and you must fix this asap before this happens to a lawyer with a lot of free time''. That's why EULAs are necessary. Now you know that your equipment causing you harm the adjust to suit so it does not harm you. PS: I use a direct drive wheel too and I don't have this problem. Cheers from Paul.
     
  19. Paulfield

    Paulfield Registered

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  20. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    So I understand the majority of RF2 users want it to stay as it is, and don't see this as a problem, also not for the new RF2 users who don't know whats coming and they have to find out afterwards that there is a legal disclaimer when I read these comments?
    Lol....
     
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