Does sliding the car get punished in Rfactor2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by davidporeilly, Jan 15, 2021.

  1. Dave^

    Dave^ Registered

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    Are there any cars in rf2 which allow you select every type of tyre available?

    I don’t know the first thing about what goes on behind the scenes, so forgive my ignorance.

    Would be good to test every tyre available on one particular car, and compare which tyre we all perceive as “real”.
     
  2. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    I think we could test quite a few tires by changing the files packed with a car we choose, however we wouldn't be able to get the DLC tires as those are within the encrypted mod files I think
     
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  3. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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  4. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    If I can pull this out for a comment: there's pretty widespread consensus that in the recent DLC cars (at least) there are some issues that reward unrealistic driving. There are (measured) aero effects that don't seem right, and there are people sliding around corners and producing very fast times without any (or sufficient) apparent detriment in terms of tyre wear, indicating some tyre issues.

    I hate seeing unrealistic driving being fast, because sim racing is the closest I'll ever get to taking part in a sport I've had a lifelong interest in and I want to do it properly, and not be forced to take on unrealistic habits in order to be competitive (or help be competitive... not naive enough to think the tricks are all that's holding me back :D).

    Most of the kickback you see in regard to slip_angel relates to his manner and theories. If you read through the discussions you'll find really no one is denying there's an issue; they're refuting the various baseless claims and sweeping statements that prove nothing. And the claims that are demonstrably false. But, typically, calling out specific statements as untrue apparently means you don't think anything is wrong :confused:

    Look at this thread title: does rF2 punish sliding? Yes. No argument there, can't be any. Does it punish enough, and in all cars? Well... how much time do you have to go into that properly? So instead, just pick a side and argue. Great! :rolleyes:
     
  5. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    It’s been said for both iracing and rf2. The older drivers are saying that the younger drivers who try to rely on the sims are picking up a lot of bad habits. Like one of the ones quotes above said: it needs to be seen as something fun to do rather than be an actual replacement.
     
  6. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    I just wanna point out that older people will always look "badly" at the "new ways" ... Be it Motorsport or otherwise. Doesn't mean they're wrong though. But there seems to be a consensus amongst younger drivers and coaches that you can take a lot from SimRacing (not everything of course), and I think Rudy Van Buuren and James Baldwin are great examples. Not to say anyone can be like them if they practice in sim, far away from that, just that the "bad habits" certainly aren't that bad

    On topic: someone mentioned the group c mod as using all or nearly all RL data, including tires, and suggested we tried it (sorry I don't remember who it was) . Yesterday I took the 787B foe a few laps around Spa (and one of nords... But you can't really test anything there xD), and I do Feel like This car does not allow as big slip angles as the dlc cars. You still need to Slide it to be fast, obviously, but I feel like the grip drop off after ideal slip angle is bigger. Is it more or. Less correct? I have no idea. But its a damn good Fun car.
    Did anyone else try this car?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  7. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    I did suggest the Group C cars, particularly the 962. The 787B tires tend to last longer than the C11 or 962 probably in part to offset the competitive level for the endurance racing the mod was designed for. The 787B was a bit slower than the 962 or C11 both on track and in rF2 but easiest to drive. They tended to run longer stints than the others with fewer pit stops. The 26B engine also has much wider torque band.

    Mostly I run the 962 FWIW, mostly because its very similar and created as a "dead nuts" replica. Those are my era of cars when our team raced IMSA. Haven't driven the 962 on the track, our team at the time ran GTU Mazda, and purchased a Spice SE86 GTP light and updated it with an new SE90 tub converted it to GTP with and all aluminum V8 Pontiac. The honeycomb tubs were superstiff for about 1-2 seasons but as the honeycomb bonds began to fraction quickly became flexible flyers. I drove it quite a bit in testing at Roebling Road, Road Atlanta and Charlotte but Pontiac decided to withdraw from Motorsports Sponsorship funding so we never raced it. The rF2 version of the 962 tires felt very similar regarding slip angles as I recalled. I also still have an rF1 version of the Spice along with a handful of other cars of the era that a number of us contracted out for rF modeling for a reunion league we raced in 2010 for of a handful of us who retired from IMSA. One day I may convert them although would really want more detailed wireframe models.

    Earlier I mentioned a level of exasperation over the trolls (one in particular) who seem to want to take rF2 physics back to the dark ages which is where iRacing currently is. rF2 has an exceptional physics engine compared to all other racing games. To deliver realtime response to tire physics takes the vast majority of CPU processing, and the Bristle Bush architecture is light years ahead of any of the other games. The file construct of the tires (TBC/TGM) is where the qualities are defined. Its still a little bit science and a lot of trial and error to generate realistic files and only recently it seems 3rd party modders have gone through the tools to create their own files.

    As for S397 cars, in particular GT3/GTE, they have their hands quite full with BOP actions on different cars at different tracks. It's not an easy task to apply without endless hours of testing and rework. Don't take this personally if it applies, but frankly these cars are targeted to the more novice levels of simracers. Not just with the built-in assists and limited tuning, but much more race-able without so may wrecks. Even with a sim, it takes a couple thousand hours to develop advanced skills, and even then with a plan to learn setups & responses along with driving styles and passing/getting passed skills.

    There are folks who exploit setups both in the simworld as well as the real world, Smokey Yunick, Vince Granatelli, Colin Chapman and Keke Rosberg were masters of setup exploitation in my day. Those who produce videos with the intent of revenue will produce all kinds of garbage, and that applies to what's found in the simworld as well.

    The OP pretty much answered his own question and provided data to back it up. Much of that was confirmed by others. The concerns over tires will point to the TGM/TBC file physical content not the physics engine itself. It is possible to give a large or small margin of reserve by editing the tire files. Any significant changes to the tire physics engine will impact the entire base of existing mods so its not likely to happen when the TGM/TBC files can be modified to achieve the same results.
     
  8. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    There are hundreds of cars in this game.
    There are many cars that are harder to recover from slides than group c.

    Some people when talking about whatever issues in rf2 are referring to GT3/GTE but these are just very small percentage of all vehicles.
    RF2 is much more than GT cars.
     
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  9. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    First of all, love your post. reading a concise opinion from someone who actually has real life experience, especially such rare, powerful machines, is something very rare that I think most of us really appreciate.

    I've been thinking about this, and there is definitely something different about the dlc gt cars. I've only bought them (both gte and gt3) ~~this~~ last year (right it's 2021), and used only the ferrari gt3 for gtc, mclaren gt3 in an endurance, the ferrari gt3 in another endurance, and lastly the porsche gte in the CS. So all my opinions were based mostly on other cars, mostly third party cars actually, that I have been using for league racing (mostly) for the past 4 years or so. And I do remember, the first official gt3 car I drove (the mclaren), thinking that thing did indeed allow SUCH a big steering angle through the corners that it got me very confused at first. But, as a competitive player, and since I've been using mostly those cars this year, I think I grew used to it
     
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  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    TBH, I don't think there are many cars harder than groupC to recover from oversteer, at least from their era. Probably only F1 cars. Simple youtube search of "group C crash" does display various footage documents on how brutally and sudently things did sometimes go wrong for these cars

    Also this one is very interesting video. Jackie Stewart basically got a tankslapper with group C Jaguar, with not the most lucky consequences.

     
  11. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Nice find. But are you sure it describes rF2 and rF pro tire model?
    After all it’s proprietary.
     
  12. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    BTW, @John R Denman,
    do you think that same mod in Assetto Corsa is as faithful a recreation as rf2s?because one of my best experiences in SimRacing was driving that very car, in ac, on nords, with a 3dof motion rig and vr goggles... That was such an overload to the senses that when the rigs owner stopped the game after a few laps it took me a while to figure out why everything went black. Then I nearly fainted after getting out of the rig...
    Earnerd me a scale model of that beast of a car so that was worth it
     
  13. Havner

    Havner Registered

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    And how do you guys find the recently released Alpine?
    I tried to race it smoothly and properly and was 3 seconds behind the fastest guy (talking about competition servers for both, Cup and GT4). Then I decided to apply GT3 tactic of overturning the wheel in turns (excessive understeer) and I managed to shave off 2 seconds on my laptime e.g. in Ibarra and become competitive. Granted, my front tires were at 60% after 25minutes race, but beyond awfully feeling FFB due to this I saw no negative punishment for this style of driving. The only punishment was that the way the car felt and the way I had to drive it was not pleasure at all.

    Any thoughts? Anyone attended those races? In what state were your tires after 25minutes if you finished in on some relatively high positions. @Bruno Gil ?
     
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  14. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Well, I see opinions starting to converge more now. Good to see. I guess some of the modders might have some default/pre defined model that they can apply on their cars and they are simillar to Studio 397 phylosophy and that's why, if I remember correctly, behave kind of simillar? Not all I believe, but probably because it can be so hard to mess with the technology that shortcuts are made, if they are available, as I've seen a lot of mods saying they applied the same models by 397.
     
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  15. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I believe that car has some problems braking traction on the rear wheels. They remind me of AMS2 cars on that aspect.
     
  16. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    Yes and yes.
    In the early days of rF2 ISI provided quite a bit of detail on how the Bristle Brush architecture was implemented.
    If you search over the rFPro site it identifies the alliance with Cosin.
     
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  17. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    I think this car overheats the tires a lot easier than the gts, and you lose grip grip at lesser slip angles (the fronts, mostly). It sort of feels like the rears are either wider or a softer compound, as even though I can keep them gripping more than the fronts, I heat them and destroy them faster than the fronts. I've finished the CS races with about 60 at front and 50 at back. Although I use a lot of power to get out of the corners, so that could be it.

    I do find that, while this car forgives overdriving/sliding too much quite a lot due to its underpowered nature, there is a lot more time to win by sliding Just a little bit, especially on corner entry. Much more than the gts. So I would try going a step back in aggressiveness and see if your times improve. That's how it is in real life too: you first dabble below the limit, then you overdrive to find where the limit is, then you step it back until you get the most speed and the least wear.

    Please remember, what you consider overturning the wheel might not be so - Or you're not going fast enough to take the corner with the low steering input you expect. For this to happens, you do need to make the car slide at corner entry.

    The ffb is kind of choppy.even in my g25 I can feel it now. But it's very informative.
    There are some problems with the way damage is modeled... I lost a front bumper, judging by the games graph, and visually, nothing happened, behaviourally, the car started oversteering like crazy...
    All those things apart, it's a very fun car, very good for beginners and for some quick racing. It almost feels like a kart at times
     
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  18. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    It's a short wheelbase, rear engine car with I believe an open diff locking the inner wheel when transition from braking to corner entry. I don't see what's wrong with that
     
  19. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I mean wheel spin due to flooring the throttle. I didn't find it believable on that aspect but the car felt good other than that.
     
  20. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    I don't know exactly what they've done with AC over time, but the initial implementation was similar to rF1 and GTR. Some/many sims developed after 2005 were based on open source Rigs of Rods which was a pretty good generic starting point. I tried AC a few years ago and it gave me the impression of rF1 with huge updates to graphics, but never looked at the file structures. It just didn't compare to rF2 in terms of handling and suspension setting responses so I never bothered to reload it after building my last PC. I'm pretty certain its been updated since then but I'm satisfied with rF2. AC has excellent and efficient graphics but I drive a sim for the handling and setup.

    Around that same time I tried iRacing which was just plain painful to drive.I seriously doubt iRacing used a suspension geometry file just based on the on screen movement of components being totally disconnected from what they should be doing. Very crude.

    While for my use I'm strongly biased towards rF2, its really weak for multiplayer. Its rare that I run a multiplayer session, let alone run a qualy & race session.
     
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