Does sliding the car get punished in Rfactor2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by David O'Reilly, Jan 15, 2021.

  1. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    7,454
    Likes Received:
    4,370
    I propose a contest. Create a mod with tires created by all the experts posting above. Then we can vote or race or something to determine which tire is fastest, which feels the most realistic and which tire is just plain rubbish. Anyone?
     
  2. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2020
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    79
    I honestly don't see the point of this post when it's clear people are finally having a good discussion and trying to get somewhere
     
    Nieubermesch likes this.
  3. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    7,454
    Likes Received:
    4,370
    I seem to be doing that a-lot recently. I was proposing this so we could FEEL what it is you have been talking about. I clearly am at a complete and utter disadvantage concerning the topic, but I would love to experience what you folks consider a proper tire and how many variations the group would come up with.
     
    Nieubermesch likes this.
  4. Dave^

    Dave^ Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2019
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    121
    I dont think that would ever be possible, due to different perception of “real” and different hardware.

    Even the spec miata drives nothing like my real mx5, so how am i meant to know what the other 300+ cars and countless tyre types in rf2 are meant to drive like, not to mention the setup differences.
     
    avenger82 likes this.
  5. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,926
    Likes Received:
    3,876
    It takes so much knowledge and effort to make a tire. I have been progressing at that for more than two years by now...scratch it - 2years in rF2, but overall four years. And I still don't have a clue of about third of real time parameters, and I haven't even touched ttool yet. Still I can get a lot of what I want to the tires and what I believe is true.

    @Dave^ I think nobody would. But there shall be some principal logic about the tires, which should be providing some realtively true references of how particular type should be approximately expected to be.
     
  6. David O'Reilly

    David O'Reilly Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,050
    Likes Received:
    756
    Thanks Aidan.
    We do drift also off topic here faster than a rally car without assists sometimes.
    Oh and while I'm here I will give my opinion that RF2 is harder than real life (excluding the fear, physicality and heat).
     
    Bruno Gil likes this.
  7. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    937
    :eek::eek:
    But how!
    Everyone is saying that rf2 is too forgiving and some say it's dumbed down for the masses.
     
  8. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2020
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    79
    Some are afraid* it will get dumbed down for the masses.
    And getting dumbed down doesn't necessarily mean getting easier, in this case I'm afraid of the opposite: artificial "hardness"
     
  9. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,926
    Likes Received:
    3,876
    I am positive, in future fresh rF2 car will get easier, and then it won't be harder than real life anymore as some thinks, and then it will still get slightly more easy. No signs shows that perceived reality vs perceived difficulty in almost any sim nowadays would have any significant demand for getting car to be more challenging. It is usually just few observant guys with such opinion. So IMO you should not be afraid that freshly baked rF2 car will artificially get hardened, it will fairly get easier to get abused at and over the limit and more realistic indeed. Everyone with the right mind knows that real drivers don't drive like that only because tires are expensive, and they wouldn't abuse tires even to do faster laptime. Also when RL Pro drivers spin, it just happens because some unexplainable glitches in the matrix, not because normal physics laws.

    By the way, Michelin engineers doesn't know what they are talking about, IRL drivers just doesn't use their equipment at full anger, thats why the tires lasts a lot more. The simulation here in rF2 has punched all the holes of lies of reality.

    Ok it is all sarcasm. There are ways to prove anything being right and wrong. Just takes some rational faculties to shuffle though evidence and decide what to believe. Sometimes lines of truth and false does blur, can't really blame for not seeing or admitting the difference. But in some other cases the lines are so far appart, it is impressive not to notice.
     
    Nieubermesch likes this.
  10. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2020
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    79
    I don't get what I said to be the target of such sarcasm... But I do wanna add that most racing drivers consider the sims as harder. Mostly because you lack the seat of the pants feel
     
    Dave^ and David O'Reilly like this.
  11. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,926
    Likes Received:
    3,876
    IDK you sounded genuine that you think devs could make sim artificialy harder than real life, while there is obvious way larger appeal by majority to get progressively less challenging stuff, and perceive that as climbing on improvement ladder and that is intuitive - less challenge is superior tech, it is less prone to go wrong.

    As for actual race drivers complaining. Thats their work to do that. Pro drivers job is essentially to find whatever possible reasons to justify why he can't go faster and more consistently. How many pro drivers has said: "I should not be able to do this, I am not that good" ? And seat feel benefit is true, but definitely overrated, however all these forces loading up and moving the driver and all his parts of the body might also have unhelpful side to it....
     
  12. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2020
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    79
    I see I get misinterpreted a lot so I should try to change how I say stuff.
    Basically I'm afraid changes can be made in such a way that you have to be just below The limit to be fast like certain games. This can be done by drastically changing how the game represents traction and its loss, which I think is one of the sims big points, or by just making it so hard to control the car in a slide that you have to drive below that point, otherwise you start skidding about and inevitably lose time. This is in one way making the game "harder", while at the same time easier by removing one layer of complexity (sliding). Does this sound like a game you know of?
    I should probably say sim or I'll get crucified lol.

    Anyway, about your second point, I didn't mean drivers complain it's harder, I mean they say its harder. I'm talking drivers who actually took the time to understand the similarities and differences beetwen sims and RL, instead of those that say "this sim is crap because it is not what I expect". Once again, Scott from Driver61 did a good video on this, and I believe I remember he was also of the opinion it was harder to control he car due to no feeling of acceleration in the body,while it was very similar for lines, technique, and especially racecraft. Harder =/= wrong (I had worse but wrong is more correct)

    EDIT: I would say harder, in this case, equals less intuitive/instinctive
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
    mantasisg and Nieubermesch like this.
  13. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2018
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    630
    Point taken. Its just a bit exasperating when a few of the same folks perpetually whine about the physics without any evidence or even knowledge of real world conditions. Its even worse when those same folks tend to stir the pot as nothing more than trolls. I'll leave it at that.
     
    Bruno Gil and Nieubermesch like this.
  14. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    Yeah I understand you :D;)
     
  15. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    I just had the excellent idea of doing a video on 3rd person driving/sliding, so we can put the perspective to rest. Let's see what happens ;)

    Good findings here for now. Can become quite a breakthrough :D:D





    There you have. I think it's quite revealing watching the second video. You would think I am rotating the car a lot and sliding too much, but after looking at the replay and also seen in 3rd person, it's not really the same feeling we have of "mushy" tyres we kind of get from FFB. Visuals can actually affect how we perceive the FFB. It's kind of crazy, but really. Put FFB out and drive with the wheel. It sorts of feels as if some FFB is present...

    FOV goes a long way to alliviate that feeling or aggravating, rotation and how specifically the tyres are sliding, as sometimes it looks like the back is going around sliding and when you watch on replay with road camera, it's gone...
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
    Bruno Gil likes this.
  16. Bill Worrel

    Bill Worrel Registered

    Joined:
    May 1, 2019
    Messages:
    456
    Likes Received:
    325
    Here's an interesting video on slip angle in SIMs (iRacing is shown but should apply to others too) I came across today on reddit.
     
    Bruno Gil and Nieubermesch like this.
  17. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    Freaking nice man. Seems IRacing isn't that shabby is it? ;)
     
  18. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2020
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    79
    Like I said, you need to recalibrate your perception of sliding. I had this same issue when I first started playing rf2. Now you'll start to feel just how good this sim is... I'm glad you decided to test this yourself instead of taking a certain other person's words for granted ;)

    I've heard some mentions of people calling this game "yaw simulator"... This I think is because of how noticeable changes in yaw (rotation) are in this game and that's what makes people think that theres a lot more going on than actually is

    I haven't even watched yet,
    but I would recommend the video Worrel posted. IM gonna watch it now. Also, that video I linked to from driver61s, I think that will help a lot to "recalibrate"
     
    Bill Worrel and Nieubermesch like this.
  19. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    Yeah, I already knew of slip angle and that there is a certain ammount of slip, but I've learned a lot in just a few days. I have a comment on Ermins video about the physics being broken, that certain rotation aspects are just visual effects and camera and head physics enabled, but I wasn't aware of the full extent.

    There's still room to see that I believe sliding and heat causing slip to accelarate that need looking into. I've even saw Marcel talking about a new heat model, so there might really be something to it. For the mean time, I got a weight lifted of my back to be honest. I thought this slipping was worse than I tought :rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
    Bruno Gil likes this.
  20. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    Video is very nice and so is Iracing looking kind of nice there. IF it wasnt the price I would be giving more tries for sure.
     

Share This Page