Does sliding the car get punished in Rfactor2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by David O'Reilly, Jan 15, 2021.

  1. David O'Reilly

    David O'Reilly Registered

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    GRAB_010.JPG GRAB_011.JPG Lap 10 Naz story.png Tyre temps lap 2 Naz.png Tyre temps lap 10 Naz.png Tyre wear Nazareth GTE.png
    So fellow drivers I was motivated by the recent discussions about driving style and how sliding the car more was maybe faster and maybe wasn't punished enough in RFactor2.
    So I set up a little test. I used Nazareth as its short and simple and I can get more laps done quickly and consistently and eliminate as far as possible driver performance from the findings.
    I'm trying to edit a video but Lightworks keeps seizing so I'm writing this.
    The test Process
    I used the Porsche 911 RSR GTE on soft tyres (more obvious wear trends)
    Setup was my Virginia setup (been learning that track this week)
    Real road rubbered but Static
    Tyre wear X5

    I did two 10 lap runs.
    Run 1 was driving smooth but fast, trying to go as quick as possible but like in a race rather than in Quali so I didn't abuse the tyres.
    Run 2 I slid the car more.
    On my rough maths a 10 lap run multiplied X 5 gives us about 22 mins of racing, lets say 22-25 mins as its hard on tyres.
    The Results
    I went surprisingly faster on run 2 (appr 0.60 sec)
    That pace fell away by lap 5 or 6 and by lap 8 was similar to run 1.
    Tyre wear on the aggressive run was MUCH worse (see pics) and the car was a pig by lap 10 and slower and getting much slower much faster.
    Tyre temps rose faster on run #2 but they were similar by lap 10 but the run #2 tyres were shot by then.
    Any conclusions
    I learned I can push harder and slide the car more.
    It does hurt the tyres and so yes we do get punished. Maybe not in that lap, but later in the stint. by 20 mins in the guy who is hurting his tyres will be slower.
    That in my view is quite realistic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2021
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  2. Dave^

    Dave^ Registered

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    What you need to do, is find the balance between the two styles.

    your smooth session will have had a average slip angle of 2 degrees, while your aggressive session will have been 12 degrees (both numbers pulled from my arse, but bare with me for a second).

    Do another session, but aim for 7 degrees and see what happens.

    Do some reading on slip angles...

    https://speedsecrets.com/q-what-is-slip-angle-how-do-i-use-it/
     
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  3. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    Try testing with the MAK Corp 962 mod. Its probably the most realistic rF2 mod ever constructed, using actual suspension geometries and forces with tire physics that have been refined through testing by actual former 962 drivers.

    Most of the GT cars created by S397 are good, but those tires are already "detuned" a bit in regards to heating; folks are whining like mad with 20 some pages of grievances because the cars are "too driftable" when in fact they don't even come close to real world capability. I suspect thats got a lot to do with those who feel the need for driver assists, and definitely from those who've never turned a wheel in competition on the track.

    The 962 dry tires heat appropriately when pushed. They wear appropriately when pushed. Wet tires don't, but that's something S397 hasn't really dwelled on in the core physics engine. It takes a lot more feel in the steering and throttle to drive these cars fast and they're a bit less forgiving on throttle modulation given the power and lack of driver assist. But once they've been mastered its very hard to go back to S397 GT cars, so beware.....
     
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  4. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I really don't enjoy those cars at all.
     
  5. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    What are you talking about with the assists remark? Cars are sliding too much in a controllable manner, not sliding like they should, at least for some of us. We want driving to be more punishing, so I am not sure what you are talking about.
     
  6. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Well, I guess I don't know how to propperly use the foruns. My bad, I agree having responses on the same post to different people would be better.
     
  7. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Yes, it's better to edit and add more on the same post. It was annoying me too seeing so many post by me one after another. Will have that in mind. Doesn't help that I am being a bit hyper active on the foruns :rolleyes:

    Oh, thanks (edited) :D:D
     
  8. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    Traction Control etc.

    As for Group C, it's OK to admit that some cars are above one's skill level.
     
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  9. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Ahaha, it could well be the case but it's not really the case, maybe it was FFB that I didn't quite like, but I felt something off. I deleted them just the other week if I am not mistaken, as I've had them regarded as great before, but last time I checked I was quite disatisfied.
     
  10. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    In the upgrades there is an FFB strength option. Group C cars lacked power steering and no steering dampers so feedback was a bit intense. Suspension tuning is a pretty critical on the 962 and C11, although the 787 is pretty forgiving on tuning.

    As for the topic" Does sliding the car get punished in Rfactor2", my point about the MAK mods was those cars, (962 in particular) is probably the best mod to test with. S397 cars have encrypted MAS files so its anyone's guess how they were composed. Driver Assist features such as Traction Control also affect the driveability particularly under sliding conditions, and the method of implementation plays another critical yet unknown set of effects.

    I've noticed the S397 GT & prototype car tires tend to get much hotter more quickly than they do in real life. In some years at Daytona 24 when a few teams are pretty close in the last 2 hours these cars get pushed to the limits lap after lap, often approaching and sometimes beating their qualifying times, lap after lap, on a track thats gone to rubbered in nicely to somewhat greasy. In the wee hours of the morning before sunrise when the track is cold, pay attention to the drivers who just changed into the car - at first their a bit cautious and after a few laps they'll be abusing the tires to make up for the lost grip. Sure its a bit colder air/track temp but they're still turning up the heat/wear on the tires.

    Hear nor there really, the OP really answered their own question in a way; push the tires harder and they wear faster, and lose grip when they overheat. As for how close to the real thing, I know of at least one mod thats pretty much dead on.
     
  11. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    A bit off topic but, thanks... I shat myself a little bit driving (rather, driven by) that thing on the Nordschleife in VR.
     
  12. David O'Reilly

    David O'Reilly Registered

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    Thanks for the response.
    Without wanting to sound arrogant I've previously gone a little deeper into it than that article does.
    So some snippets: Optimum sliding varies from car to car and from tyre to tyre and from front to rear.
    EG The Mark 1 MX5 (raced on road legal tyres) responds well to high slip angles. You move the car around a lot to go fast.
    The Mark 3 runs on semi slick (or grooved slick) Avon ZZR race tyres and must be driven with a lot lower slip angles. Driving it like a Mark 1 would be "over driving" it. That produces more heat than speed.
    The car however will always be sliding, it's the judgement of how much is where the skill is and you feel it through your backside more than through your hands.
    The tyres once up to temp have a lot more grip but you are still sliding. That's where setup comes in, to have both ends sliding the same amount.
    Managing temperature: To warm up the tyres you need to work the fronts actively but not provoke understeer. Over driving on cold tyres results in cold tearing.
    The rears will (largely) look after themselves. Failure to manage each end differently can result in the rears going off before the fronts have "come in".
    In a race you can see cars ahead of you over-driving and know that they will be vulnerable after 15 mins of racing.
    I'll post a video here where you can see that happen IRL (yes and to show off I'm getting unbearable in my old age).
    Pertinent part is at 5 mins 20s
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
  13. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    @John R Denman I don't use TC or ABS i still think cars are way too easy. It is not assist that is taking away the realism it the car itself.
    And believe me i know how to drive after 6+ years of experience , even in ACC i was only 1-2 seconds off to alien times despite not using TC.
    Even won/got podium in ACC online races without using TC even in rain.
     
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  14. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    In the long runs indeed the drifting and sliding isn't as big of a thing. As you say, thermal deg will kill your times in the long run, and if you push too much you will even spin because the tires get too hot. This usually happens after like 5-10 laps, which is where the problem might lie for the extreme drift angles.

    In a hotlap for example the tires are still cold, but once you start sliding they get to ideal temps, and not too high due to the core temps still being low (this is just a wild guess based on experience for now). This gives extreme angles and probably the exploiting the biggest podium. I don't see it happening in VEC for example. After 5-10 laps, depending on the car, you usually start seeing a drift angle having a point of no return (although I still don't have great problems catching slides in the bentley for example). This I don't feel is present on the second or the third lap for example.
     
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  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Remco Majoor Yes, sliding into proper tire surface thermal range with many various rF2 cars is a thing, it has always been strange to me. I think it would make sense for a first few minutes of driving, but some cars does seem to work like that through whole time of driving.

    TL;DR
    Just contemplating possible TGM tire real time section configurations in relation to sliding and wear mechanics that are being observed by community. By using my current knowledge and experience. Making no claims, just assuming.


    When I configure tires in my physics of cars I give slightly thicker thermal depth for them, this makes tire surface temperatures to fluctuate less. This way they stabilize at bit higher heat level, and doesn't cool down completely for every turn, this way I enter in the turn with more grip, car is less prone to sliding. If it slides, then it is more prone to slide further off grippy thermal range. Of course tire heat conduction to road surface is important parameter as well to achieve (supposedly realistic) thermal balance through the run.

    By the way, I have seen rF2 tires which appeared to have lesser heat conductance parameters to wet road surfaces, which I think is no way correct, or I miss something about it.

    Through my work I have discovered interesting effect of tire wear to sliding grip in rF2, which makes absolute sense. The abrasive shearing rubber of the tire contributes to more severe sliding. The fact that some particular popular rF2 cars has some strange tire wear and sliding characteristics comparing to real life high performance tires that are being simulated, provides basis for a guess, that those tires in rF2 could possibly have rather flat abrasive wear curve, which means that amount of sheared off rubber at normal vs overheating temperatures might not be different enough. If there was less rubber sheared off at "good" temperatures tires would have better grip at that range, and if shearing would intensify at higher temps, then grip would drop off harder and quicker at hard slides, which would make rough driving less rewarding, and staying at the "supposedly" correct ranges of tire performance - more rewarding.

    Also amount of abrasion seems to be quite directly related to flatspotting effect which we can perceive through FFB, less abrasion means less probability of getting noticeable flatspotting. I have seen your report about Mclaren gaining flatspots, even when not abusing tires that much @Risto Kappet. I would suppose it could possibly be that too much rubber is being sheared off at optimum tire temperatures, or at least their average temperatures that you have through your session. And just perhaps... not enough at overheating temperatures.

    Sliding of tire is also sensitive to velocity, and there are parameters for that as well, even split per three different tire friction sources - adhesion, micro deformations + macro deformations (mechanical keying?). Naturally higher the sliding speed is, the less sliding friction there is, and also more heat is generated which drops sliding friction further. So velocity parameters for sliding friction are very important tire grip parameters as well.
     
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  16. Dave^

    Dave^ Registered

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    I had a feeling you’d know more than I do. ;)
     
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  17. David O'Reilly

    David O'Reilly Registered

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    Mate we are all learning all the time so never hesitate to throw some ideas in.
    I mean I learned stuff in that test I did.
     
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  18. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    I could be mistaken but I believe GT cars are built to use TC, sometimes to the extent of being difficult to rotate without it. Turning off TC in these cars should therefore decrease the realism.
     
  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Curiosity is awesome thing.
    Or perhaps the thing that one can turn it off without too much consequences ? In other words, TC is in the sim because it is there in real life. But perhaps (quite likely) there in sim aren't same exact reasons why TC is used in real cars. P.S. I have been saying same thing two years ago here.
     
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  20. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    How should they slide exactly ?

    I keep reading assumptions about many "flaws" but still no evidence of anything, why should a GT3 car kill you each time you slide ?
     
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