Do you play RF1 on-line or offline more ? ( poll)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jameswesty, Jul 31, 2012.

?

Online v Offline ( Multiple choice)

  1. I ONLY , race online

    43 vote(s)
    26.9%
  2. I MOSTLY , Race online

    47 vote(s)
    29.4%
  3. I ONLY , Race offline

    18 vote(s)
    11.3%
  4. I MOSTLY , Race offline

    48 vote(s)
    30.0%
  5. Offline AI and basic single player does not affect if I buy a sim or not I am 100% happy without it.

    20 vote(s)
    12.5%
  6. I would only buy a driving Simulator that has AI as an option

    40 vote(s)
    25.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    As suggested by users in the other post about % of users that play on-line v of line.

    Remember It is multiple choice
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2012
  2. Knight of Redemption

    Knight of Redemption Registered

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    It's missing Club League Racing and Public racing...there is quite a difference :)
     
  3. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    Your right league racing is separate from jump in pubs but its still on-line racing and for this poll I am trying to establish what the importance of AI/single player in driving simulators is when it comes to sales.

    If i included questions about legue V pub racing then it might confuse things or dilute the data , It would be an interesting separate poll though to establish out of the people that play RF2 what % only play in legues V pubs.

    People could clarify with posts if they want to :)

    Its important to be aware that the rusults of this poll will likely be afected by the fact that people on the RF2 forums are going to be ones more active in the comunity and probably more active online.
    More usfull data could be aquired if ISI asked this sort of question at the piont of Purchase. Or if ISI got the data from the server list and sales figures.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2012
  4. ProTraX

    ProTraX Registered

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    Singleplayer (offline) is Boring!
    I want to drive against real peoples and want to chat a bit.
     
  5. coops

    coops Banned

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    +1
     
  6. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Never offline -pointless to me
     
  7. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I miss option, use mod dev mode mostly, not racing, not using online at all :)
     
  8. monkeysout

    monkeysout Registered

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    Why is this rf1 post in the rf2 beta forum ?

    I play rf2 offline as i'm still learning.
     
  9. Robert Gödicke

    Robert Gödicke Registered

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    Offline is boring. No challenge because AI cars are way too slow and don't feature special characteristics.

    Racing against your arch enemies is where the fun is for me. You get to know their driving styles, their behaviour when driving wheel to wheel, their weaknesses. Actual personalities.

    You can get mad at others, you can be delighted for others, for your teammates, your friends in the pack. When voicechatting about certain scenes from past races with your teammates and your opponents you really know that you are a part of a community. You are one of those small gears in a complex machinery which keeps the fun going.

    And when you meet all those people at a famous local racetrack in person, everything becomes even better. You respect those guys even more, and little arguments with them in the past are forgotten. You drink a coffee or beer with them. Friends are made.



    Even though this is a little bit more to consider than simple offline vs. online, this is what it is for me. That's online simracing. Being part of a community. Offline racing? For me, not needed.
     
  10. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    Only special characteristics I know of is the constant elitist douchebagging.
     
  11. Jos

    Jos Registered

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    I like competing, racing Ai is not competing.

    Its also not realistic, thats also the point, realism.

    The AI is only usefull for rubbering the track.
     
  12. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    It applies to RF1 and RF2 , I just say RF1 as the question due to the fact RF2 is in beta but in general the question applies to both games / all simulators.
     
  13. Lecram

    Lecram Registered

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    And to follow them a couple of laps on a (for me) new track to memorize corners.
     
  14. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    duplicate
     
  15. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    I set 'Mostly online'.
    For offline racing I wouldn't buy a sim I think. My whole simracing life is related to online racing in leagues, but...
    We have a rule, that unprepared driver shouldn't connect a server. In that case I do practice offline to get know the track/car.
    Also sometimes I do private tests to check tyre wear or fuel consumption just before league event.
    In both cases, it is about racing alone, without AI.

    PS. I should check 'I am 100% happy without AI' , but description is too long and I missed it ;)
     
  16. Satangoss

    Satangoss Registered

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    It's true most because of awful AI behaviour in RF1 than the nature of offline races itself. I can get some fun offline in GTR2 ou Race On, for instance.
     
  17. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    +1, great post!
     
  18. Satangoss

    Satangoss Registered

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    Ai slow or absurdly fast is a matter of choice. It depends on so many variables that is impossible to do a statement like that. 99,999% of the mods and tracks are not optmized regarding to:

    - Track learning files (great feature totally underrated).
    - AIW waypoints displacement and smoothing driving lines.
    - HDC car files (AIAimSpeedsPerWP numbers)
    - Wrong track surface resistances (TDF file)

    Not to mention the PLR variables as "Smooth lines =3", AI Break usage and others.

    If you have a Mod + Track + PLR with all calibrated values, the AI would never be "slow".
     
  19. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    I think the issue is the AI is slow in situations where humans are not this seems to be the case in all simulators and evan arcade games .

    Of the top of my head a list of where AI is broken in all games and simulators

    1) sharp corners - AI always brake to much or in a non human way for corners
    2) lots of traffic - AI is always slow in traffic with it becoming exponataily worse as you add more cars
    3) defending - AI does not respond to the pressure of leading whilst defending a human
    4) Race starts - AI is very erratic and delayed in its movements unable to make the complex derisions a good human driver would

    I think the only way to get real acting AI in a driving game would be for a game to record thousands of human player laps from online play and then bleed that information into a base AI system similar to what RF1/2 has now, It would be very complicated but I see this as the future for AI in most games.

    I am not simply talking about having on-line play denote verables like Risk , speed , aggression what it would take is a direct recording of the movements and behavoirs.

    It would be analogous to motion capture but for decision making , I would not be suprized if company like Valve are working on this type of method right now.

    EDIT

    Aside from the pionts above I think the biggest issue facing AI is that its not human and people know its not human. For many players of games this totally removes the satisfaction or emotional involvement and joy of victory. The decision making process of AI is very transparent compared to that of a human even when it comes down to left right brake or accelerate.

    In fact from a scientific stand point I think its quite fascinating that as a human its possible to tell if you are racing AI from such limited information.

    We also know that computers are far better at repetitive tasks than humans so if the AI is slower than a human its due to the fact that its made to be slower or its broken , so its never a fair competition.


    so in the end AI is probably only ever good as a training tool or for casual and non competitive drivers that are primarily after an exsperance rather than a competition.

    Having said all that Current generation AI in diving games provides more than enough engagement for pore to average drivers or casual racers.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2012
  20. Satangoss

    Satangoss Registered

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    Good post, James.

    I’m quite convinced that the AI experience never would reach the same level of fun than an online racing. I’ve raced in some leagues in the past and I’m aware how different is the feeling. Racing games is not a chess game, where the computer takes linear decisions and can emulate a human very well.

    Still, sometimes you’re just not up to subscribing any league or start a hunt for 4.554.223.511 files to be updated to join an online server. You just want to fire the simulator up and have some racing. That’s the why is necessary a decent AI code. Regarding the aspects you pointed out:

    1) Sharp corners: believe-me, AI can do them properly if you manage to create a decent AIW file for the track. What often happens is the AI corridors are screwed in tight corners (they’re overlapping or not getting the border of the useable surface) and the AI calculations results in tight room to cornering, ignoring the space on kerbs or even being a bit out of the track. Those calculations force the AI car to break much more than necessary. Mostly, it’s a track issue!

    2) Lots of traffic: Indeed, the AI code tends to be more careful than necessary to overtake anyone in order to keep a safe race. But, here also there’re some workarounds. Firstly, Auto Line Smooth="3" in PLR file. Second, and again, a decent AIW file which the inside line recorded properly and not overlapping the outside line. Third, remove the got damned “Ai Limiter” on PLR line to get the cars running free. In addition, Simbin titles and even Codemasters F1 (!) have managed to get some more intelligent late-runners who obey the blue flags. ISI doesn’t.

    3) Defending: Nothing to do about that in RFactor. GTR Evolution, although use the same ISI engine, has a hardcoded defending which the AI cars move on the track trying to block you. Once is hardcoded, it’s also predictable. Maybe RFactor2 presents a better solution for it? I hope so.

    4) Race starts: also tricky because the large number of cars in a tight space. To avoid a demolition derby at start, the code opts to be very conservative, allowing the human racer to overtake a lot of cars. I’ve never seen a acceptable AI solution for it.

    Let’see.



     
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