Do the new GT3 tires hurt the slider exploit drivers?

Lazza said:
That first video has 3-4 degs too much safe slip? How much total slip have you measured/perceived in that footage?
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Perceived is probably better word. I think it was ~8degs. It doesn't matter to be exact, it just appears too much, and too long. Perhaps bigger issue I'd say is for how long it is possible to stay at higher end angles, which makes it fitting driving technique. It does not look unrealistic, but perhaps for modern tires it is bit too free.

We are probably yet to see some aliens putting these cars at 9-10degs slip for hundred meters mid turn. At least now it will look right.

It is just interesting. IDK, maybe there is lack of snap oversteer (when front of the car grips up, and basically switches either understeer or neutralsteer into oversteer). The way I understand how it works in reality is that if you go at 150km/h and more through a turn at the very limit of all four super high performance tremendous grip slick tires, you are neutral steering, yawing twisting the car, it should be very easy loose that comfy and useful four wheel drift glide because it is very likely that any moment either of two ends will grip up while other will continue sliding and will result in instability, thus you are literally very tense not to loose a car at any moment. And only most skillful most chad-style Senna-like drivers could pull it off, while most would use more safe style keeping it in check aka driving on rails. I don't think there are many RL gt3 onboards where four wheel drifts would last so long that anyone without trained eye and actually being focused would notice that it happened.

Maybe it is a bit of longitudinal traction break lacking while cornering with plenty of throttle applied and high slip angle combined. Maybe it is something else. Maybe bit too much polar inertia. Maybe it is bunch of tiny things combining into something larger. Or maybe the cars are realistic enough for 99% of simracers and it doesn't need to be super exact. And for simracing pop-culture cars such as GT3 cars are, it is better to keep some drivability reserved for those that aren't going to put in 100hours just to master being consistent and fast. And there are arguments like seat feel blablabla
 
If anything the only thing that looks a little off is how gently it returns from slip to grip. But then what do I know. Looks close enough for government work to me
 
found this very fast hotlap of aston GT3 @ spa >> (posted just a day ago so should be on latest patch)


seems like normal driving is pretty fast, hopefully video isn't done by using any fake in-game assist.
 
Simulation_Player said:
found this very fast hotlap of aston GT3 @ spa >> (posted just a day ago so should be on latest patch)


seems like normal driving is pretty fast, hopefully video isn't done by using any fake in-game assist.
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Yoann is one of the fastest guys in rFactor 2. He has participated in the official events.
 
In all those Spa onboards you can see the floaty/slip-angle behaviour almost only within the Les Combes and Malmedy complex. I'm not sure why the GT cars do that, but the BTCC cars are different to that. In my view, more believable. Sadly, I couldn't find a BMW BTCC onboard around Spa.
 
vava74 said:
Yoann is one of the fastest guys in rFactor 2. He has participated in the official events.
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If he is an alien and this is "exploitative" driving, then it is probably no big deal and good enough. But I would personally be more impressed if more steering and throttle corrections, being more careful was necessary, instead of just pushing through slides like that. I also just watched his Maclaren video, looked a bit more true, still weird at places.
 
Flaux said:
In all those Spa onboards you can see the floaty/slip-angle behaviour almost only within the Les Combes and Malmedy complex. I'm not sure why the GT cars do that, but the BTCC cars are different to that. In my view, more believable. Sadly, I couldn't find a BMW BTCC onboard around Spa.
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probably because GT cars still use the old tyres as their base,so there will be similarities.
BTCC tyres are probably made from scratch, so this may be why they were better implemented for new tyre data.
 
The details of how the tyres behave at slip angles should be the last thing to worry about when drivers will still need to turn the feedback down below 60% to avoid clipping, and without a meter to show the problem.

Is this some kind of Spinal Tap joke?

How many people have tried RF2 for the first time and not been able appreciate the amazing physics because of this simple oversight by the devs. The sims main selling point becomes it's worst trait if the ffb is in a constant state of clipping. New players are likely not going to mess with this because they (quite rightly) assume it is set correctly, and it may be the last time they play the game.

Devs please raise the HDV's FFB nominal by approx 50% on the GT3 vehciles and this problem will be solved. It should be set near to the average peak force, not the average constant cornering force.
 
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@doddynco This is bare minimum to get into sim racing though, one must know basics of ffb. it is really not that hard to go to options menu....and first things you see are usually ffb related, with info written in game menu itself or worst case , you need to google search it....which takes like 1-2 mins at most.

doddynco said:
New players are likely not going to mess with this because they (quite rightly) assume it is set correctly, and it may be the last time they play the game.
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if they are stupid enough to judge entire game without taking 5 mins out of their special time, do we really need these idiot casuals ruining our sim industry ?
 
Simulation_Player said:
@doddynco This is bare minimum to get into sim racing though, one must know basics of ffb. it is really not that hard to go to options menu....and first things you see are usually ffb related, with info written in game menu itself or worst case , you need to google search it....which takes like 1-2 mins at most.


if they are stupid enough to judge entire game without taking 5 mins out of their special time, do we really need these idiot casuals ruining our sim industry ?
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There's literally no reason why you should ever have to adjust it providing the FFB nominal is correct in the car's HDV and the Steering torque capability is correct in the players controller.json.
 
doddynco said:
There's literally no reason why you should ever have to adjust it providing the FFB nominal is correct in the car's HDV and the Steering torque capability is correct in the players controller.json.
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It's not that simple. The game should have some basic presets for different types of wheels, and some hints/helps for the player to understand what clipping is and when it's happening.

Make the default 60% and most new players on Logitech gear wheels will ditch it because of weak FFB. This is equivalent to a store having the most expensive sound system playing loudest - louder is better on a 30 second evaluation. If NFS: Sweet Rims Bruh! gives strong FFB and rF2 gives detailed but weak FFB, everyone who's not already into sims will prefer NFS off the bat.

Different categories of wheel (Nm, and tech to some extent) should have different default targets, and the UI needs to help out. I think we can probably all agree the game needs to help itself here, by educating the user live instead of them needing to use a forum to find out basic stuff.
 
Lazza said:
It's not that simple. The game should have some basic presets for different types of wheels, and some hints/helps for the player to understand what clipping is and when it's happening.

Make the default 60% and most new players on Logitech gear wheels will ditch it because of weak FFB. This is equivalent to a store having the most expensive sound system playing loudest - louder is better on a 30 second evaluation. If NFS: Sweet Rims Bruh! gives strong FFB and rF2 gives detailed but weak FFB, everyone who's not already into sims will prefer NFS off the bat.

Different categories of wheel (Nm, and tech to some extent) should have different default targets, and the UI needs to help out. I think we can probably all agree the game needs to help itself here, by educating the user live instead of them needing to use a forum to find out basic stuff.
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I get what you're saying but I still think that a G29 using it's full dynamic range feels more powerful than a G29 that is clipping. It's more the dynamics, not the maximum load, that makes ffb feel strong.
 
From watching that onboard of Yoann it makes me think that the whole issue that people have (or percieved issue, or whatever you want to call it) with rF2 is not being able to get a grips with the tyre flex. In my view he is not really slipping the rear tyre, i.e for most corners the tyres arn't really losing grip with the track surface - yet the car isself is yawing quite a lot. The tyres are (more or less) staying put on the track surface and the car itself is yawing due to the tyre flex. So the car looks like it's sliding/yawing, people make comments about fake physics or exploit driving or whatever, but realy the tyres are holding on and it's just the flex that is creating a few degrees of yaw.

IDK if that really make a difference to the final argument but it's just an observation. Also I think I've said this before lol.
 
doddynco said:
There's literally no reason why you should ever have to adjust it providing the FFB nominal is correct in the car's HDV and the Steering torque capability is correct in the players controller.json.
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there can't be "good enough" single setting that works for all....considering types of wheels, what people prefer etc. its just 3 knobs iirc. 2 of which i don't even touch generally (ffb smoothing and minimum ffb). I never bothered with .json setting ...never felt the need to.
a ffb clipping indicator would be nice but tbh personally i just don't care , i get ffb good enough level that takes 5 mins at best, which is usually around 70-100% depending on car and get on with working on real problem in car.....me the driver.

this is coming from a G27 driver btw , who in theory should tune FFB to best level possible, to compansate for older ,cheaper...... lower detailed wheel.
 
@green serpent Hmmm... I can't imagine how it could be possible, because if car would yaw due to tire flex, it means front and rear would flex in opposing directions.

Also it is not necessarily rear tire slipping, but all four are slipping. Also slip angle is necessary to make a car turn, and slip angle is basically a progression where static contact patch of tire is decreasing and increasingly more of the patch is sliding. Tire keeps generating more and more grip as more kinetic friction is adding up till last bit of static contact patch area disappears. When entire contact patch of the tire is sliding then lots of factors decides if slide should be self correcting, if it is possible to correct by driver inputs or if point of no return is reached, and also is it possible to return safely without just redirecting problem into other way. Slip angle of a tire is base, it changes with load. Past the peak when full patch is slipping heat, sliding speed and tread ability to keep the rubber on are major factors. Perhaps strangely large angles wouldn't be strange (at least to me) at all if they just would last shorter, and they would last shorter if for a driver it would induce more danger of spinning out. And thankfully physics were improved a lot, and exactly that happens, just with a little bit extra room to survive, IMO.
 
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