Dirt Track Improvements

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Joe Stornetta, Oct 25, 2010.

  1. Joe Stornetta

    Joe Stornetta Registered

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    I know that theres already been a forum on Dirt Racing Improvements, but I want this thread to be more focused on the tracks themselves. I believe that the mods could be fine as they are (even though there are some small things that could be improved), but I think the tracks need the most improvements. I know that some of what I'm going to say has already been said by Shawn or someone else in the Dirst Racing Improvements forum, but this is everything that I have put together for dirt tracks. Again, this is totally my opinion and some of it's already been said before, but please be patient.

    Tracks:
    I think the dirt tracks in this original rFactor don't change enough. Example: the other day I raced a full 50 lap race and all the people that were on the bottom at the beginning of the race were at the bottom and everyone that was at the top was at the top. Some people moved their cars a little bit due to how the car feels on long fuel runs, but the track never changed. With a long race like that you should see 2 totally different tracks from the beginning to the end. Dirt tracks change very quickly, often as quick as a heat race can be run. The track should also feel different from one heat race to the next. And I don't mean like it would feel in 50 laps, but just small changes to the track from one heat to another. Also, what much dirt tracks do before a B Main or A Main is water and/or grind the track. It could start getting pretty slick after the heats or dashes, then the officials go out and grind and water the track to make it tackier. It would be pretty tacky for the first few laps of the main (narrow lanes, not much passing) but as the race goes on the racing groove gets wider and wider and the track gets slicker. It would be awesome to see that in rFactor 2.

    That's just what I have right now. I'll probably think of more later.

    -Joe Stornetta
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2010
  2. Joe Stornetta

    Joe Stornetta Registered

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  3. lespaul20

    lespaul20 Registered

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    I imagine RealRoad will have a fit here but since pavement and dirt doesn't react the same in terms of dynamics I'm sure it's going to require a little work to get it right. Gjon expressed interest in the other dirt thread. But his interest was to quantify dirt track changes which nobody here seems to have. It would be cool if real dirt racers could gather data through out the night but I'm sure this wouldn't be easy.
     
  4. Joe Stornetta

    Joe Stornetta Registered

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    I race wingless sprint cars in real life. What kind of data are you talking about?
     
  5. Matt Sotomayor

    Matt Sotomayor Registered

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    The problem with that is there are hundreds of different kinds of clay/dirt that react differently to weather/water/sunlight/etc.

    Collecting data wouldn't be easy, but it's possible. You need a few tracks on board, to basically measure track conditions based on amount run, as well as the weather. It will be a tedious task for sure, but well worth it. Quite literally, someone will need to get their hands dirty to make it work.
     
  6. Joe Stornetta

    Joe Stornetta Registered

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    that would not be a problem for me. i am very good and looking at different tracks and how they adapt through the night. once i get a few differents tracks' data then i could watch videos and talk to other people about the other tracks that I haven't done. then i could put it all together for each track and the conditions... or we could just go off of one track and let the individual tracks' demensions do the rest.
     
  7. lespaul20

    lespaul20 Registered

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    I'm not a modder so I wouldn't know data would be needed for the track builders. The way I understand, dirt is much more dynamic because dirt can build vertical(I think cushion) much more than rubber can on pavement. In other words it has a third dimension. And from what I've heard the track changes much more quickly as laps are run than pavement does. I think modders/ISI would benefit from numbers that are relative to each other that can can be plugged in. But I'm not a modder or an ISI developer so I could be way off.
     
  8. Jason C. Ray

    Jason C. Ray Registered

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    Les, what usually happens is that a track during the first session(usually called "hot laps") is "fresh" or "tacky" from the top to the bottom. What happens from that point onward depends on several different variables. Weather and track preperation are the biggest of these variables. Wind, heat and cloud cover in the area have the biggest effects from the weather aspect. For example; if the weather is hot, windy and it's a cloudless day the track surface is much more apt to "slick off" or wear out. A slicked off track will become darker in color and will actually mirror and reflect light after the lights have been turned on later into the night.

    The middle of the track in the turns tend to wear out the quickest. This forces the drivers to run more to the extreme bottom or the extreme top of the track later into the night depending on their setup and driving style. The top often builds a layer of dirt that is called a "cushion". The cushion often resembles a curb that you'll see at the edge of your average paved street. The drivers use this cushion by laying their right side tires against it. It allows them to carry more speed through the corners and depending on the setup, the driver's skills and sometimes the driver's bravery, the top line can be much faster than the bottom/shorter line around the turns.

    Preparing a track usually involves applying high amounts of water to the surface as well as digging down into the surface so moisture can penetrate the dirt/clay. This is done by various farm equipment ect. ect... Then the track is "ran in" and packed by by trucks/track vehicles prior to the races. There is an art to doing this. Too much water and the track will become very rough and rutted. Too little water and the track will slick off very quickly.

    As i said earlier, the way that the track reacts is dependant on how the track prep is done. Some tracks are done better than others.

    The third variable is the composition of the track surface. Some tracks have red clay, black gumbo, light brown clay and still others are very loose dirt (see limaland and hilltop in Ohio for two examples of this). Red clay and gumbo tend to hold moisture longer (based on my experiences and travels throughout the years, I could be wrong about this). Another factor is how old the track surface is. Some tracks just wear out over time and the promoters will bring in new clay to resurface the track every few years. A worn out surface will tend to dry out quicker and sometimes become extremely rough.

    From a track modeler's aspect, trying to keep up with this on a single model could quickly turn into a nightmare. The way that we've done most of the tracks at BOZ is to make two different tracks within each track that we've released. One is labeled tacky and the other is labeled as slick. We can assign different textures to the surfaces to represent what they would look like at each extreme. I would have absolutely no idea how to make the track surface appear to change mid-race. I'm sure that it's possible with the right programming in the game but, that's an ISI issue. To add to the difficulty, I would have no idea how to make a track surface "build" a cushion during a race. It would require several different track surface models to be loaded for each session and each one to be "activated" at certain points throughout a race session. Again, I'm not sure if something like this is possible and I can't imagine the amount of work that it would take for a modeler to get something like this right. The easier (and what I'm guessing that it will be approached in this manner for the new game) would be to have the tdf change throughout a session. Cushions would need to be simulated with the tdf files by making certain sections bumpy at certain points ect. ect...

    Sorry for being long winded here. I'm sure that there's more to it than I've touched upon and if anything else occurs to me I'll post it later.
     
  9. lespaul20

    lespaul20 Registered

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    Jason, as a modder, what are your thoughts on the RealRoad potential on a dirt surface?
     
  10. Jason C. Ray

    Jason C. Ray Registered

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    I'd have to see it in action before I could say one way or the other.
     
  11. Joe Stornetta

    Joe Stornetta Registered

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    Impossible is nothing. :) You never know with modern technology.
     
  12. seandennis

    seandennis Registered

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    In real life if you look at the v8 and the midgets, the high power vehicles the track goes from wet and grip to slick and hard. you will find that the high horse power turn the tires that hard that they get hot and burn the water off the surface. also there is 2 types of surfaces other then the clay. it comes down to how the track is prepared before the racing, you have a soft pack and a hard pack. the soft pack hooks the cars up hard and can make the track narrow due to the cushion or there is a hard pack which causes the track to be more loose and wider plus the cushion will be higher. i don't know about the pavement but i have seen pics of the weather plugin and i've seen pics of a wet surface and as the laps go by the track looks drier there. in stead of a cushion done in modeling you just use images like the weather plugin. unless someone does a plugin so you would do a separate model of a cushion and as the laps goes by it slowly rises up to give the cushion. but that is a thought.
     

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