Dirt Racing Improvements

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ShawnB, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. CdnRacer

    CdnRacer Banned

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    If ISI got the developers who worked on Richard Burns Rally then the problems on dirt would be solved. :D
     
  2. kidrocket

    kidrocket Registered

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    i support this post 100%. Dirt racing in rfactor is the only reason i actually play rFactor. I love dirt racing and so do many other sim racers and would love to see improvments in rFactor2 to simulate a real dirt car.
     
  3. DmitryRUS

    DmitryRUS Registered

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    Hello dear developers.
    There was talk and video about the work of the asphalt surface, the particles are covered with rubber trajectory rain. But about the work the soil barely speak. For me it is very important. Will you have to work it dynamically?
    My question to you on account of the ground surface.
    1) Will you alter the geometry of the ground surface? (This is very important for autocross and rallycross)
    2) Will the dirty asphalt surface during the transition from the ground on the asphalt?
    3) Will there be marks on the surface of asphalt, soil, grass throughout the race? (Now playing in a file *. tdf is the value of Tex = skidhard.tga Max = 2500, it is very short and they disappear)
    4) Will my car be covered with mud during the race?.
    That's all I enclose below a visual example of what I mean. (Game MXvsATV: Reflex, a real photo rallycross contamination and video machines.)
    [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]
    [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]
     
  4. KDSR Wing H8a

    KDSR Wing H8a Registered

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    I believe the way rF and real life Sprint Car & Midget (possibly other dirt oval cars but am not familiar) measure 'ride height' etc is quite different.

    Maybe someone with more time & knowledge than I could explain what 'ride height' in Sprint & Midget terms refers to ,how its measured (measure from where to where?) and how its changed & possibly why.
     
  5. Bill Malicoat

    Bill Malicoat Registered

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    Most of the time Sprint and Midget guys measure to the torsion tubes. I would have to look up the measurements to give a real number but something like 14 inches they would say for example on the RR, that is to the RR torsion arm at the tube (center of the bar).

    Rfactor measures to the bottom of the frame rail, to me this is not a huge deal you just have to know what that distance is from a real car to the bottom of the rail to be able to compare to a real life setup.

    More importantly to me for these cars is being able to set them up properly in the garage. I would like to be able to do all weight jacking with a torsion stop or a spring perch for each corner. So if I wanted to add LR weight to the car I could increase LR ride height or go to a stiffer LR spring and this would have an effect on the weight on that corner.

    for an example a real sprint car or midget for that matter if the car is super loose there are many options you can do in real life. You can move in the RR (we cannot do in rfactor without an upgrade), you can decrease air pressure in rear tires, you can raise the ride height and this makes the roll center lower and raises the CG of the car ( I am not sure how raising the ride height effects the roll center or cg height to be honest, I have tried to figure it out with mixed answers), you can decrease stagger (another thing rfactor will do not quite right, it will decrease, but it does not raise the LR corner of the car and add weight to the LR), you can also add LR weight the the car and rear weight in general)

    That is a few options you have, if you move the locations around in rfactor I think it will accomplish some of this but it is not 100% accurate I think. because to add LR weight to a car you have to stiffen the LR or make the LR ride height higher, neither of these has to happen in rfactor so I think you can get some unrealistic setups.

    I would love someone with more knowledge to add to this, it seems a few changes to the way we are allowed to adjust settings in the garage would fix a lot of the confusion to me.
     
  6. Bill Malicoat

    Bill Malicoat Registered

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    One thing that is important for Dirt Oval racing that we have not found a solution for is the way the track surface works with tire wear. I did a bunch of test and no matter what I did the tires wore faster with a higher value in the TDF. A dirt track is different then tarmac for sure with tire wear. Example, at the start of a night on a dirt track with a lot of water (we call it a tacky track) the track surface is soft and has a lot of grip (high TDF value) when the track is like this there is almost no tire wear on dirt tires, very minimal. When the track dries out and gets slicker (lower TDF) value the tracks get more abrasive and the cars have much more tire spin and the tires wear and build heat much more than with it is wet and tacky. To further complicate things when the track starts to rubber up at the end of the night (if this happens) the track gets faster again and you get the most tire wear. It almost seems like we need another variable on the TDF for the abrasiveness of the track surface as well.

    The other option is to make tire wear much more a function of tire spin, I tired this with our current tracks and still the tires wear much much faster on a higher value TDF grip.

    Hopefully someone can shine some light on this or think about a way it can be implemented if it is not possible to tune correctly now.
     
  7. Dalton Dietrich

    Dalton Dietrich Registered

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    to simplify what bill said, in the case someone might get confused...rfactor is backwards at it's current state. The tires in rfactor wear as they would on asphalt...the more grip, the more tire wear. In dirt, the more grip, the less the tires wear because they are grabbing a soft "plyable" surface. As the track gets hard, and all the soft clay/dirt is worn away, we get an asphalt like surface in means of tire wear but not grip. The grip decreases...the tire wear increases. And even farther into the night, we get "rubber down" meaning the tires have worn to the point where the rubber is actually sticking to the track, similar to asphalt "blue groove". At this stage tire wear is at it's highest, and grip has come back, but in the form of rubber rather than sticky clay.

    Another thing for me to add unrelated to track surface...damage. It may have been touched before, and I apologize if I am restating what has already been stated, but after talking to Bill on his forum relating to the boz sprintcars, the damage cannot be correctly done due to frame rate issues. Damage for some mods, is pretty good, but for our style of dirt racing, where flips are more present than asphalt, damage effects much more than the body or tires.
    As you can see when the orange and white car is heavily damaged after that nasty wreck. We in rfactor cannot replicate this kind of damage. If the dev team at ISI could make highly detailed damage models less effective on FPS, it would be fantastic!
     
  8. Shane

    Shane Registered

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    Can ISI say how well dirt racing will be supported in rF2? I looked through all the previous post and never really saw anything that said if it will or not or to what extent. Maybe missed it?
     
  9. Jux

    Jux Registered

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    I think the dirt and rally support will be added after the realease with patches.
     
  10. AmickRacing

    AmickRacing Registered

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    I'm not sure there's much more that can be said that hasn't already been covered pretty well. But a post that is just "+1" is pretty boring to read.

    I'm far from knowing how to go about modeling or physics'ing these games, so some of the ideas could be a piece of cake, or next to impossible... I'll say you've done great so far and have changed the sim world already, so there's no doubt in my mind that future updates will only make things better.

    The big keys I'd like to see personally is a way to have custom skins show up in the game with out all the massive skin packs, and all that confusion.

    I'm a big fan of the idea of a changing track surface, but it'd also be nice to tie in a way to see the change too, as well as feel it. For the most part, on a changing track surface you'll be able to see it, sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's way obvious.

    Of course I'm biased and would be giddy as a school girl if you threw all the paved stuff out the window and focused only on dirt, but in reality I know that won't happen, and wouldn't be fair to that side of the sim world either. I say focus on making what you have better, since it'll only help the dirt side, then as you folks have time cater to us dirt fanatics.

    I'd love nothing more than a perfect 100% accurate sim dirt late model, but I don't think we'll ever get to that point in the foreseeable future. The suspension of those cars are too complex for real life sometimes, so getting all those goofy quarks into a computer game could be next to impossible. Don't let that stop you guys from trying tho!

    Thanks again for everything you guys are doing (game makers and mod makers), you guys are awesome!
     
  11. mikeyk1985

    mikeyk1985 Registered

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    I'm not a fan of dirt ovals but AM a fan of Rally and true Rallycross so the physics would obviously carry over. I've only seen one screenshot of a dirt course in 2009 I believe so I'm guessing it's not too high on the agenda.

    Take heart in the idea that with so much work being put into track and tire physics, ISI would almost certainly give the same attention to whatever is included in the final game :)
     
  12. buzard

    buzard Registered

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    ISI needs to track down the Ratbag guys.
     
  13. Aaron Carlisle

    Aaron Carlisle Registered

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    All of the RatBag guys formed BigAnt Studios.

     
  14. AmickRacing

    AmickRacing Registered

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    I thought of another nice addition for rf2.

    Ghost car.

    Being able to set the ghost car to "average lap" or "fastest lap" would be a very nice addition when you're practicing on a track and trying to find the right groove, and also it would greatly help you figure out where the setup changes you've made has helped also.

    With the possibility of the changing track surface the average lap ghost car would be useful. You could see where you've been running and then also see where the track has gone away.
     
  15. SPONGEZILLA

    SPONGEZILLA Registered

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    Just as an addendum... most open wheel cars (Sprints, Midgets, Silver Crown [a/k/a Dirt Champ], DIRTcar Northeast Modifieds, etc.) use Solid front axle front and rear suspensions. Dirt cars like late models, Street Stocks, Economy Modifieds (IMCA, UMP, WISSOTA, AMRA, etc.) use Upper and Lower control arm front suspensions. They're not double-wishbone but are closer to them than a solid axle front setup. There's a need for improvements for both. Having the ability to manipulate the front end geometries for both would be highly beneficial. It'd also help if you could use torque handling devices for the solid axle rear suspensions, whether torque tube, torque arm, or pull bar.

    This is pertinent for pavement oval racing as well though. Most NASCAR cars are using upper and lower control arms like a dirt car, while using a more primitive truck arm rear suspension out back. Most pavement late models are using a Watt's Link style rear suspension with multiple bar angles available out back but use a upper and lower control arm setup out back. For dirt and pavement open wheel cars, they're also very similar in that they both use solid front and rear axles... although the geometries, offsets, and everything are different.
     
  16. dice65

    dice65 Registered

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    wheres the dirt ? we need our sprints,lates ,north east dirt modifieds and more in this sim ! get her done ,lol
     
  17. Bill Malicoat

    Bill Malicoat Registered

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    Going to be a little while, we have cars in the game but until we understand the new tire model, they are only good to look at. Depending on what the newer tutorials say about it, it could be a long time...

    I entered values for each node and built a TGM file and my tires are still flat, so I need a whole lot more understanding of what is needed to build a new tire.
     
  18. dice65

    dice65 Registered

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    ya i heard you guys were having a hard time with the tires last night , take a couple of days off and clear your mind , you will get it , i have total faith in you guys ! and thanks for all your hard work an time it takes to do this stuff !

    steve
     
  19. Johnny Hendo

    Johnny Hendo Registered

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    I am hoping that in addition to taking all of the afor mentioned suggetions on board that they do something to fix the multiview issue in the dirt oval mods. At present there are no dirt oval mods that allow for multiview as I believe that when modders remove or alter the mirror files the multiview no longer is an option for us 3, 5 or 6 screen gamers. Multiview renders look left and look right on to your left and right screens for the 3 screeners (180 degree) and allows for a full 360 degree view for the 6 screeners. With rf1 and rf2 both allowing for a 360 degree view it seems a waste that some mods void this capability. The old SBS Sprints is the only dirt oval mod that i have found that caters for multiview, no other dirt oval mod does. Checking the multiview option in rf config results in 1 screen working only on the dirt oval mods so you must redesign your sim so that your 3 screens have no more than 5 degrees of angle (you can have slightly more angle the further back your seating position is-nosecam verses cockpit) then uncheck mutiview to get your 3 screens working. The end result is a very flat and narrow field of view. Please ISI can you help the modders with this one as it is a very frustrating issue, especially when it comes to the fact that dirt oval more than any other discipline would benefit from this. There is a real need to see what is going on beside you on dirt ovals with so many high powered vehicles sliding around in such a small space. I know that ISI is doing a lot of work in rf2 to cater for the multi screen community so it would be nice if they helped to correct this issue for the dirt oval community also. I race a lot of different disciplines in rf1 ranging from F1 to Sprintcars with a lot of other stuff in between and can't help but notice that probably more than half of the racers using the dirt oval mods are either actual racers or somehow tied to crewing or building real dirt oval cars. I don't believe that there is any other discipline in rfactor that has such a large percentage of an actual racing community using rfactor as with the dirt oval racing. If ISI were to servey this I think the results would speak for themselves. Please ISI look at this issue and help the modders to achieve what they want in relation to removing/changing mirror files as they are doing this for realism. If it is not the altering/removal of the mirrors that is causing this then please advise on the possible reasons for it and how to overcome it. I have not found a single tarmac mod that has this issue, it is an issue that relates to dirt oval mods only...oh, also an issue on the boats too, not that i race em but just thought i would have a look.

    Thanks

    HENDO

    p.s Nothing gets the blood pumping or the adrenilin going like hitting the first turn in a pack of 20+ cars and all sideways, not to mention that your in a vehicle that has a similar power to weight ratio as with an F1.....Sprintcars for ever!!!
     
  20. DirtClod

    DirtClod Registered

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    We need dust, and rocks, and mud! :) Off-road was very weak in rf1 and am very hopeful rf2 will remedy that. Off-road/dirt is very big here in the states, and of course rally is big around the globe. I would love to see that better supported in rf2. Fingers crossed.
     

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