Dirt Racing Improvements

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ShawnB, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. Antonio Silveria

    Antonio Silveria Registered

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    I can agree with all that has been in favor of improving dirt oval racing for the next Rf release. The community is one of the most tight knit on the net, and it produces excellent racing. For this area of the sim to receive the attention for improvement would greatly be appreciated, and the sim would reap the benefits. Great work and look forward to seeing what comes next!

    Antonio Silveria
     
  2. buzard

    buzard Registered

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    I know this is not exactly what anyone had in mind, but is there any way ISI could get the rights to use the old Ratbag code for their own use. That is still the best dirt physics I have ever used!

    buzard
     
  3. ZeosPantera

    ZeosPantera Registered

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    Please excuse me if this seems insulting .. But why the hell is everyone posting their names again and again at the end of each post like its an official letter to the president and you wish to be noticed. This is an internet forum. Your name is in Big Bold letters next to your post automatically. You don't need to post it twice.

    Now to something only slightly more relevant to the topic. Off-roading in outerra. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izyZ1kKQzbE&translated=1&fmt=22 Granted it has almost nothing to do with rFactor or actual racing I believe it would be a better place to deal with dirt then here. http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/192-rFactor3-Dream-Big-Dream-Outerra?p=1960
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2010
  4. Mitch Harris

    Mitch Harris Registered

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    Hmmmm what else to add to this thread that has basically fluently described everything else lol. Visual Tire Deformation? though i think this was already announced or not basically any sort of Dirt Oval class goes through some stress with rear tires.
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    @ZeosPantera
    They are just trying to be polite :), heaps of people do the samething , its just a sign off to the people they are addressing. Also this isnt your normal internet forum haha, especially when the creators/staff of the game the forum is about post regulary : D.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2010
  5. woodn

    woodn Registered

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  6. Keith_Fitzgerald

    Keith_Fitzgerald Registered

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    Awesome picture of Cat Daddy! :D

    Yeah, I'd love to see tire deformation as well. It's something that would add just that little bit extra in the realism department.

    edit: Just saw this on VirtualR, way to go devs!

    I'm sure I'm not the first to say it, but thank you guys so much for supporting the dirt side of this sim! You just made my day, I cant wait to see how it turns out!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2010
  7. Antonio Silveria

    Antonio Silveria Registered

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    that is certainly good news Keith! Good find!
     
  8. Dalton Dietrich

    Dalton Dietrich Registered

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    new screenies posted in the forums. Dynamic tracks are in affect. (asphalt for now anyway)
     
  9. mP9o

    mP9o Registered

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    this maybe true in some parts of america (and other target markets of that/those series), but im pretty sure majority of the european are on totally different opinion ;)

    i created rally thread for us, so dont worry :D
     
  10. Dalton Dietrich

    Dalton Dietrich Registered

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    i understand that. I more aless meant that this thread is started for dirt oval. Rally can be discussed for sure. I may run rally it all depends.
     
  11. Brad Skusa

    Brad Skusa Registered

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    Tires in the dirt world are bias ply tires and not radials. That is the hinder in rFactor. In a radial tire, air pressure builds but the tire does not expand.
     
  12. SPONGEZILLA

    SPONGEZILLA Registered

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    There's a lot of things prior mentioned that fit the bill here. We need a good solid rear axle model so that the rear end doesn't become disjointed to the differential as it does currently in most dirt game mods (and similarly, the front axle on a solid axle Eastcoast modified or Sprint Car/Midget/Champ car) and also impacts stuff like the classic Indycar mod that was put out. We need J-bars (spring-loaded and otherwise) that allow the rear end to not only travel fore/aft (i.e. like they can with 4-bar style bar angles now) and up/down (just standard shock suspension) but also side to side in the car (i.e. allows the rear axle and tire to slide out of the left rear fenderwell and get pushed in to the right rear fenderwell on cornering). Having a spring-loaded J-bar can cushion some of the blow on corner entry/exit just as much as something like a Torque Arm or Pull Bar (also needed) would.

    The tire model also needs not only the deformation capabilities shown above (visually as well as realistically in terms of adverse affects to the car's handling) but also the issue with bias ply vs. radial tires that Skusa mentioned. The images point out the visual realities of what we need there but it needs to be far more than window dressing. We need it to help with the tire model. Icing on the cake if you can provide an interface tool for "tire siping/grooving". Some of that would be applicable to other disciplines as well (i.e. monster trucks, swamp buggies).

    We also need bar angle adjustments (very important to the future realism of dirt sim gaming [gives flexibility to find a sweet spot in a set of physics by giving a "range" of adjustment that is currently not possible), and just as critical as the solid axle improvements and options for additional shocks/shock placements (i.e. shock ahead, shock behind), dummy shocks (i.e. shocks fore/aft with the frontmost shock not having a spring), torque arms/pullbars, and trackbar/jbar improvements. Sprint cars need the ability to have cockpit-adjustable aerodynamic devices, pavement Supermodifieds could use to have the outlet for driver adjustable active aerodynamics (flipper wings) which could tie into this, and need I mention something like USRRC (precursor to Can-Am) where a case could be made for a driver actuated flipper wing like the Chaparral's had. A lot of the stuff the dirt community wants is stuff that could benefit many people. Similarly... I'd love to see fan-based aero options made available. A Gordon Murray Alfa-engined flat-12 F1 car with a fan that actuates on engine thrust or a Chaparral-style unit that uses a secondary snowmobile engine to power it would be pretty cool. It could even open outlets to some fictional futuristic cars being created for custom series/mods, regardless of discipline.

    We also need improvements for race formats (preferrably scriptable to aid all mods with advanced flexibility to provide field inversions, passing points vs. transfer vs. draw/redraw formulas; top x # of cars locked in via qualifying with heat transfers vs. an SAS-style qualify and start the field in order, even provide an outlet for a user-interacted dice roll/spin of the wheel or pill draw for race lineup in-game via an interface) that allow for everything from single file and Delaware-style restarts to the Charlotte World Finals Double files and DIRTcar-style double file restarts (similar to Sprint Cup). Perhaps even provide an interface for allowing competitors to pick their lane (i.e. use the arrow keys when setting up the field after a caution to choose inside or outside) in-game would be awesome as well and something that could be toggled on/off via the race format scripts (either locally for offline or on the server for online). This would be an asset not only to dirt oval racing but paved oval as well. Accomodating "Lucky dogs" via an on/off flag could be used on pavement and in some cases... the creative league manager could even apply it to dirt if they so desired. Finally, if you want to get crazy... allowing additional options for figure 8, demo derby, car soccer, and even formats like Australian pursuit races (i.e. inverted field, ever car that's passed by the leader is required to pull off whether in a timed event or lap-counted event, the car that finishes first at the end wins even if it's not the pursuer and is a pursue e) would create additional bang for the buck. Not all of this is necessarily an asset to dirt oval racing in general... but it provides the means to justifying an advanced delivery system that could help make dirt and paved oval racing on all levels better... and provide additional options for fun add-on mods that allow people to just blow off steam and do things that most other games aren't going to provide.

    Ideally, even beyond the dirt... it'd be nice to have a way to stream skin/texture content to/from the user and/or league admins without relying for skinpacks, and perhaps a better way of handling skins that could include meta data and/or a container for the skin files so that rather than have to package up massive skinpacks or be "wed" to a skin running in someone else's team/folder that the skin itself could be a form of package with the .veh file, .dds, and optional parts included in the package. I can say the same for tracks by allowing people to build tracks and create placeholders for billboards and track signage that can be server driven for online league events. By default it'd use the original skin content providers' content but it'd create the outlet for league admins to have their trackside objects, track officials, etc. carry livery to match their divisions. Once again, good for dirt and asphalt mods, oval track or not.

    Also... for added realism, it might be cool for ISI to include a battery of trackside objects in-game that are mod-accessible, sort of a GPL'ed open source arrangement of content that ISI would allow leagues, mods, and track makers to use. Heck, even make it so that end users' can submit user-created content to the database for everyone's benefit (and it'd give adequate apropos to the content creator so that they'd not feel cheated/swindled when someone uses it without permission, as by submitting content to the cause... it's arbitrarily agreed upon that the content is public domain but also that adequate kudos/accolades are given back to the content creator and their name can be seen "in lights" to suit their fancy/ego/pride). Providing sim racers the options to say, buy a racing rig/hauler in-game and then via an supplied (read: user downloadable) template, skin/theme the hauler and/or crew members and then define that hauler in-game so that it appears online in league events would be pretty cool.

    Similarly, allowing the lock-in of upgrades in the veh file would be kind of cool as well. For dirt racing when we want a particular car with a particular body part (pertinent to say... the DWD mods and their mods sail and spoiler options, the forthcoming OHP DIRT mods and the choice of sails, and all dirt mods when it comes to plate wheel covers) to be default for a particular car, it almost requires that the cars be built that way by the mod developer from scratch. For added realism as an example, it'd be nice if I could paint up a skin, force it to use the short sails in DWD's Mods, force it to use plate wheels on the right side wheels, to have the motor covers, and the 8" spoiler. This could have benefits for all manner of vehicles from wide-ranging disciplines.

    Beyond that... I could even see making things flexible enough that the physics aren't wed to the car content and that at some point, the mod itself is separated from the models. This would give flexibility for people to run a league of... let's say, Sprint cars or late models or modifieds (east coast or econo) or midgets that could tap into various groups/modelers models and then you choose the physics engine of preference/accord. This could perhaps make it even easier to upgrade/improve the mod over time when things are separated from a colossal overall production and brought down into a scaled "morsel-like" delivery system where you mix/match what you want. As a league operator or sim racer, it'd be a wet dream of content and could ultimately let physics gurus be just that, and modelers be their own delivery system, and then have things culminate to suit "everyone's" fancy. This would turn things from an "us vs. them" mentality into more of a greater community building to suit everyone's wants/desires and being flexible enough to help make mods that appeal to people's different preferences (i.e. arcade <----|-- realism --|----> hardcore) and tastes. In a lot of ways, providing this *model* of game content delivery could help people build onto others' works and help extend things into a *huge* end-product for everyone and it'd likely be far more communal.

    Also... track build-up. I know that we're seeing rubber lanes appearing in-game, but how about using something along the lines of PhysX (or a custom variant that goes for increased accuracy) that calculates and simulates rubber build-up/marbles on a paved circuit and similarly... the development of a heavy cushion (i.e. with increased grip when your cars right rear hits and deflects off of it, vaulting the car off of the corner) on a tacky dirt track or a dirty/dust covered line (dust groove on a slick track)? The "marbles" effect would provide added realism on paved ovals and be a great addition to NASCAR or pavement oval mods, it could be similarly adapted to dirt oval to provide the cushion and/or the loss of grip on a drier track condition, and similarly... the "dirty line" could work well in road racing.

    If all else fails though... give me a solid Swamp Buggy mod and I'll be happy. ;) :D
     
  13. Major_Catastrophe

    Major_Catastrophe Registered

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    I think the first problem with modeling a dirt tire is no one seems to have a clue what a dirt tire slip curve looks like.
     
  14. spamsac

    spamsac Registered

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    Sorry to mention it again for those who saw my original post, but see page 101 for more details on this: http://www.autosimsport.net/index2/index.php

    Cheers,
    Simon
     
  15. Loucypher88

    Loucypher88 Registered

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    Agreed with everything said. Even though I have not played cause of my dvdrom lol, I have seen many videos enough to know that this would be a major hit, possibly one of the greatest but that's just me I love dirt racing its the best. Also I would like to say that mud and dust on the car all through the race would be a nice feature if not already done.
     
  16. Major_Catastrophe

    Major_Catastrophe Registered

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    Sorry Simon, but what I am looking at if not a 5 year old interview with Gjon?

     
  17. spamsac

    spamsac Registered

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    If you look at page 101 of the latest issue (Vol 5 Iss 3) you'll see an interview with Eero Piitulainen and Todd Wasson about loose surface tyre modelling, including some technical detail.

    Regards,
    Simon
     
  18. Major_Catastrophe

    Major_Catastrophe Registered

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    Thanks Simon,

    I clicked on what I thought was an html version but ended up somewhere else doh!

    Read the article and it breaks down to;

    # There is no available accurate data
    # A solid surface model would probably be accurate ( current rFactor approach )
    # Eero an Todd are going to take a educated guess and see what happens and then adjust based on outcome ( current rFactor approach)
    # Grip is dependent on where on the track you are ( already currently modelled in rFactor )
    # There are some other effects that may or may not be relevent so they are going to try them and see what happens e.g. effect of tire throwing dirt backwards ( Newtons 3rd Law ) but these may be irrelevent.

    I think the current rFactor engine is adequate for modelling dirt tire grip. What we lack is the information to put into the model. Todd and Eero are only slightly ahead of us there.

    I take heart from the earlier quote in this thread quoting Gjon as being keen to get dirt physics into the sim.

    :)

     
  19. KDSR Wing H8a

    KDSR Wing H8a Registered

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    A lot of dirt cars backfire or have flames eject from exhaust on deceleration but I have been told that the rFactor backfire animation is tied in with the gear change? Would love if our cars could backfire on deceleration.
    Not the top of my wish list but maybe its possible? I'm hoping.
     
  20. ZeosPantera

    ZeosPantera Registered

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    Currently Dirt racing in rFactor is basically a joke. I know this because I can drive BMW M1 Procar's to the end of the 40KM African Raid course. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcQTLj_hKcA&fmt=22 I will attempt a similar feat when rF2 is released and if I don't get stuck immediately then the improvements have not been sufficient.
     

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