[REL] Cooper-Climax T43/45 1957-1958 F1/F2 car + 1959 T51

I have to modify my comment somewhat. Tried the Cooper T43 and it feels so much better. So I don't know what was the issue with the T51. Need to do more research on it.
Other than that, fantastic cars, I agree. It really feels like there is a lot of work that went into creating them. Thanks for all the effort and hopefully there will be more to come in the future.
 
People always talk like that later on.... First it is - "it sucked big time", then oh "it is actually alright".... I never believe it. You never drive it again, you never research anything, you never try anything I suggest (caster, understeer). You are just being nice to cool it. What if there really could be something to improve (besides what is on your responsibility side), why don't you stand for it regardless if it is unlikely to be changed.

And where the issue came from with T51 now, it is different car, different mod.
 
@mantasisg Just to reflect on your comments:

I tried to increase caster and it helped a bit, I can feel the corners a bit better. I'm still struggling with my wheel setup however. Its still not as good as the other cars but better. I still need more research.

Regarding my wheel: I'm on a low-end, budget Logitech wheel so that obviously is enhancing or at least adding to the problem. I cannot really set it up how I would want it or how it would be the best according to certain guides, so there are a lot of compromises I need to make.

I run with smoothing set to 1. I usually ran higher in the past but everyone is suggesting I should go with as low as possible.
 
I have my old G25 stored in a box. I could try all my cars with that, but not going to do. When I upgraded to T300 it felt like if I upgraded to Direct Drive.

This being said there is probably still lots down to taste, expectations and driving style. I myself haven't driven T43/T45 in a long time.

You probably should run smoothing at 1-3 range. It won't change the dynamics of this car. Still, little improvements goes a long way, especially when they combine.

I must say even same car lets say Vanwall, which I assume was better to you, might not feel as great in different track, and then might feel greater in other track. Personally I do like driving cars more some days than others, and that is important for my to be aware of, because I can get things really right, and then skew it up next day when I just don't drive well, even though it is me not the car.

However usually, cars should feel very good in all tracks, all conditions. My cars though really appreciates good setups. It is just like that.
 
66wheels said:
I have to modify my comment somewhat. Tried the Cooper T43 and it feels so much better. So I don't know what was the issue with the T51. Need to do more research on it.
Other than that, fantastic cars, I agree. It really feels like there is a lot of work that went into creating them. Thanks for all the effort and hopefully there will be more to come in the future.
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Talking without having tried none of these cars yet (apologies to Mantas, but I haven't booted my PC that much during the last couple of years):

The Cooper-Climax had a mid-rear engine configuration, so the front, although not weightless, will have a different grip feel in comparison with other race-cars of the era with their engines in the front, which will give a completely different grip feel.

And all of this usually comes out almost perfectly in rF2's FFB, so they should not feel alike at all: VanWall <--> Cooper-Climax

As for the difference between the T43/45 and the T51, it could be the heavier engine in the back in the latter.
 
It is more about being small and light. Also very soft. All of that is good on paper, especially before tires got super wide and aerodynamic downforce exploded. But all of that also makes it more difficult to control the car. Twitchier, harder to set in for braking/turn/exit, but quicker to rotate and achieving more grip.

People when they talk about FFB has absolutely no idea what they are experiencing. Almost always. What good engineer does is not listening to what people talk, but trying to decipher what they mean.

Surely the mass distribution may also have some affect, but there are plenty of cars with 60%+ mass at the rear, and not heavy in total, that has good/great steering feel. What people sometimes may dislike and confuse with steering feel is dynamics of vehicle, because that is in a loop of driving feel.

I have just driven T43 with 2L engine and base chassis (softest). It is a little weird at first. But it is alright. I understand the criticism though. You can choose other chassies, stiffen up car in setup, adjust steering setup parameters. And then it can be drive na little more aggressively, but still with patience...

It is complex mod, many chassies, also modern historics version. I have to redrive them all. But after all, I have understood that cars I made were mistake to release publicly. All of them you need to be able to setup to experience best of them. Simracers just doesn't bother to do that anymore.

New years resolution - text less, talk less. Failing so far.

People are failing.
 
Anywho.

I have been thinking where it would be nice to display this cars dynamics. Good idea came to test it in Miseluk - one of the best third party tracks. Video some other day. Great combination.Have to admit that in all times I have altered default setup. Stiffened cars slightly. Increased differential coasting lock power. Reduced steering lock. Increased caster. All cars options felt very very good to me, so I just can't understand the frustrations. My favorite was "t45" chassis, "t45b" chassis did have some lesser quality feel, although handling might have been better, could have probably improved the feel by further setup tweaks - but can I ask and expect that from you, NO ! :D (I am not angry)..........I also drove "Modern Historics" version on t45 chassis, and it also was fine. The only annoying thing was the aggression of AI... have to minimise that. Also exiting second hairpin was annoying, till I realized that car pulls better and more stable out of it kept in 2nd gear whole time, those Climax engines has good torques.

Wall of screenshots to replace unlovable, unneeded, time wasting wall of text.

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mantasisg said:
... But after all, I have understood that cars I made were mistake to release publicly. All of them you need to be able to setup to experience best of them. Simracers just doesn't bother to do that anymore.

New years resolution - text less, talk less. Failing so far.
Click to expand...
I have always read your messages with pleasure, as if they were those of a developer, and it doesn't seem to me that you have failed, rather those who manage this forum have failed and are not interested in further developing rF2 because at the moment it overshadows LMU, and they are very hungry for sales :eek::D:rolleyes:
 
Thank you @Taranta

I haven't played LMU for a while and I don't know how it is shaping up. Last time I was there they were improving tires and aero, but seemed like making it 2/3 better, and 1/3 worse. But I think it has nothing to fear from rF2, as a GT3/LMP racing simulator. First of all, because it is new label. Second is because it has very fluid online racing system and is in fact updated rF2 in many ways.

Strange that there wasn't even the slightest inputs being made for rF2. At least something could be applied, it can not be that nothing that is made for LMU fits rF2. Strange to me how there was no plan for rF2, Kunos certainly still making money from AC1 till this day.
 
I call this neutral steer with slight bias towards oversteer. T51 handling display will come later after T45.

 
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Now all we need are some servers running some events with these. All of these F1 50s cars are some of the best cars in all sim racing.
 
mantasisg said:
It is more about being small and light. Also very soft. All of that is good on paper, especially before tires got super wide and aerodynamic downforce exploded. But all of that also makes it more difficult to control the car. Twitchier, harder to set in for braking/turn/exit, but quicker to rotate and achieving more grip.

People when they talk about FFB has absolutely no idea what they are experiencing. Almost always. What good engineer does is not listening to what people talk, but trying to decipher what they mean.

Surely the mass distribution may also have some affect, but there are plenty of cars with 60%+ mass at the rear, and not heavy in total, that has good/great steering feel. What people sometimes may dislike and confuse with steering feel is dynamics of vehicle, because that is in a loop of driving feel.

I have just driven T43 with 2L engine and base chassis (softest). It is a little weird at first. But it is alright. I understand the criticism though. You can choose other chassies, stiffen up car in setup, adjust steering setup parameters. And then it can be drive na little more aggressively, but still with patience...

It is complex mod, many chassies, also modern historics version. I have to redrive them all. But after all, I have understood that cars I made were mistake to release publicly. All of them you need to be able to setup to experience best of them. Simracers just doesn't bother to do that anymore.

New years resolution - text less, talk less. Failing so far.

People are failing.
Click to expand...
I am an expert at failing in that particular endeavour...
 
@jimagn naah online is covered by others

@66wheels you were right. I assumed T43/45, but I guess you were talking about T51 all along. I have tried to do same video in Miseluk with T51 today. And it was just off. Strange, because I just remember it better. Maybe its flaws get revealed in Miseluk more. I do remember it maybe being slightly worse in Monaco hairpin.

I couldn't solve it with setup in anyway. So it will probably be something not alright with geometry, I already looked at geometry, and pushing upper wishbones spindle attachment forwards fixed "ffb reversing", but also it seems cause other dynamics degradation, so I will have to revise whole physics again.

It is very strange, I also wonder have I done any changes since release and forgot about them, because I am certain I was doing quicker laptimes, and was as fast as AI, now I am slower, very strange situation... I am sure it was handling way better in the past.
 
@mantasisg Yes I was referring to the T51 in my original post. I know it can be quite difficult to create a new car, new physics, etc. There is always new things that come up, new ideas of doing things. I myself have never attempted to create a project like yours so kudos for sticking with it and fine tuning it.

It definitely takes some time getting used to these types of cars. Some cars need more adjustment but that is fine, I can live with it. Most of the cars feel great.

Also I need to learn more about the adjustments, etc. I used different sims in the past, so it takes some more time naturally until I find some good settings.

I absolutely love that fact that you and some others are creating content for the game, especially historic content. They are unique and quite challenging, especially on tracks like Pescara which is an awsome addition to the game as well. By the way, thanks for the tip regarding Miseluk, I haven't heard about it yet.
 
I have been driving your superb little cars at Donnington 30s, an interpretation of the track in late 1930s, before it closed.
The link takes you to a very short video of a race start and 1 lap of a very bumpy track, they handle lovely, many thanks for all that you do.

hope link works
 
I tested the Cooper 51 car with the new Logitech RS 50 steering wheel, a significant improvement in the driving feel compared to the old G29 steering wheel. With the G29 steering wheel, Cooper's FFB was one of the best. With the RF2, the RS 50 steering wheel is awesome. The quality of the steering wheel has a big impact on the driving experience.
 
It is very confusing to me, I know I liked T51 a lot before releasing it, and I also was quicker with it. I just don't get it. I have very good benchmarking going on in Devmode at Loch Drummond. But recently as I drove it, there was surely too much of FFB reduction and into reversing zone at tight turns. There were some FFB qualities that were great to me, such as it had interesting feel of car locking in on the exits, as it would become very stiff accelerating in straight line. On more twisty bits accelerating in non straight bits of road it was much too complicated to put the power down without completely loosing handling.

I rebuilt T51 geometry, fixed FFB reversing/loss on understeer. Did some slight improvements here and there elsewhere all across physics, but car still was wrong. I tried many different combinations with choices for geometry, finally settled down to similar geometry as it was, but slightly altered. And car still was not ok, although mostly I could drive it smoother around the limits. Then I realized that I might have never run T51 chassis file through devmode solver, I have done the chassis solver thing, and it did the trick.

I will leave it for a while for more testing, before making an update. I must say, I do prefer T43/T45 anyway, more fun to me.
 
mantasisg said:
It is very confusing to me, I know I liked T51 a lot before releasing it, and I also was quicker with it. I just don't get it. I have very good benchmarking going on in Devmode at Loch Drummond. But recently as I drove it, there was surely too much of FFB reduction and into reversing zone at tight turns. There were some FFB qualities that were great to me, such as it had interesting feel of car locking in on the exits, as it would become very stiff accelerating in straight line. On more twisty bits accelerating in non straight bits of road it was much too complicated to put the power down without completely loosing handling.

I rebuilt T51 geometry, fixed FFB reversing/loss on understeer. Did some slight improvements here and there elsewhere all across physics, but car still was wrong. I tried many different combinations with choices for geometry, finally settled down to similar geometry as it was, but slightly altered. And car still was not ok, although mostly I could drive it smoother around the limits. Then I realized that I might have never run T51 chassis file through devmode solver, I have done the chassis solver thing, and it did the trick.

I will leave it for a while for more testing, before making an update. I must say, I do prefer T43/T45 anyway, more fun to me.
Click to expand...
need to test t43 and t45 cars compared to t51 car with rs50 steering wheel
 
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