[REL] Cooper-Climax T43/45 1957-1958 F1/F2 car + 1959 T51

[mantasisg]

T43 Steam Workshop version 0.85:https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3415205058

Beautiful very detailed and complete model by RD user mexes1978:

This small car was first formula 1 rear mid engine car. First won in 1958 in first race of the season driven by Stirling Moss. It raced in 1957 and 1958. In 1958 it is usually reffered as T45. Cooper won F1 championship in 1959 with T51 car.

Progress: Physics - 75%; Model - 100%; Model Porting 65%; Skins 20%; Sounds - Placeholder.

Car has upgrade options available. Three different engines and three different chassies. Plus a Modern Historics car.

http://britishracecar.com/JayNadelson-Cooper-T43.htm

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T51 version 0.7 was made public in steam workshop. Please report your findings and ipressions about the cars, it is the only thing I get, and I need that.

T51 Steam Workshop version 0.7: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3567322608

Also invitation to my discord for those want more cars in future, talk about simracing, modding, pizza... I am preparing to build pizza oven, no joke, it is serious. https://discord.gg/XuvmKmr3

 

[Johnny Speed]

I am quite excited about this. He (mexes) said on RD that the model in now in the hands of modders. I didn't know it was you @mantasisg
thats cool!

 

[mantasisg]

Yes it is me. And I will love to do few more of his cars. Probably Vanwall and T51. But might even do all of them. As the yare just simply so well done, and I'd say very nice to work with, and I have physics for them, finished or well progressed. And it is just such a good feel to drive them.

I am enjoying driving T43 so much, I don't know which is better 2.0L or 1.5L, probably 2.0L as it is faster. But with 1.5L you have to be more on momentum which is always interesting. 2.2L is fun too, but it starts feeling a little much on chassis and those tiny tires.

Looking forward to show screenshots of this beautiful car. It is also spectacular as it has a lot of movement in suspension.

There is only one big issue with the car. It appears like rF2 suspension visual deforming rendering is not the best for such exposed longitudinal rear arms. Same issue Ihave with W125 really, but in that the arm is less exposed. But it als oobviously just moves up/down, than having any kind of deflection/pivoting. I wonder if there is any option how to deal with it. I am considering just to detach it from susp object, so it would remain static, probably less weird option.

Well, there is another problem universal with rF2. Once you start using spokes.rims blur effect it basically makes coloring rims a big proeblem, maybe not even possible, don't know. There are some iconic liveries with white rims... I might eventually do separate wheels instance with separete gen file that wouldn't use rims blur. Very uncomfortable and messy.

But car has been progressing very fast and becoming good quality fast, to do list so far:

- skins/teams
- icons
- gauges needles adjusting
- mechanicals, wheels and rims lods
- rear longitudinal arm
- continental tires upgrade
- radiator shows as grille tape no matter what for some reason
- upgrades/t45 stuff
- car body rain controls
- PBR rims/and blur effect
- polish up physics in small details
- testing

 

[pkelly]

Gratitude(s) for all your modeling prowess and enthusiasm Love driving these classic machines...and scaring the h... out of myself@'ol Spa

 

[mantasisg]

I hope to make first test of this Cooper in main game soon. Definitely Spa will be one of the first. First one certainly will be a Monaco.

 

[mantasisg]

Anyone knows how to get rear suspension longitudinal arm acting right and bending/pivoting/deforming like the rest of suspension ?

Here are first previews. Some obvious things to take care of: rear longitudinal arm movement out of place, tires wearing gives yellowing shade, right side wheel hub caps looks like if they are transparent.

I am thinking about making engine cover as debris, giving nicely modeled engine to get fully exposed sometimes.

With 2.2L 200hp this car is a beast. On the go it weights 575kg + fuel. With 2.0L 175hp it is just properly fast, at least in track with not too much straights. Even with 1.5L 140hp it is not lacking (I have to double check if that is really 140 hp lol, top speed checks out, but it just zips through turns anyway haha).

The drive is very nice. Rear mid engine layout, good traction and nice overal dynamics. Roy Salvadori must have had poor abilit to perceive cars when he said that this car feel was no different than tradtional F1 cars of the time. Especially as it also had independent suspension. Was very small and light. This being said, I maight have given it slightly too good geometry and chassis stiffness slightly on better end.

Technically I could simply remove the longitudinal upper rear suspension link. Usually they didn't even have it. I have read that Rob Walker put it on for Moss Argentine GP in 1958, because they found out that leaf spring was twisting. But they also used 2.2L engine, although other sources say it was 2.0L engine.

 

[svictor]

@mantasisg It's possible to customizable rim color with blur effect using "WCEXTRA".

Here is quick example using D50.

Things needs to change:

1. Open all GMT files that has "MERW125_SPOKES" & "D50_RIMS" material name, then rename "MERW125_SPOKES" to "WCEXTRA2", rename "D50_RIMS" to "WCEXTRA3", and save those GMT.

2. Open MERW125_SPOKES.json, change "name":"MERW125_SPOKES", to "name":"WCEXTRA2", and save. Then rename MERW125_SPOKES.json to WCEXTRA2.json. Do the same thing for D50_RIMS.json file to change "name":"D50_RIMS" to "name":"WCEXTRA3" and file name to WCEXTRA3.json.

3. Copy D50_spoke.dds, D50_spoke00.dds, D50_spoke01.dds, D50_spoke02.dds file to "teams" folder, then rename them to:
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA2.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA200.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA201.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA202.dds
Then copy D50_rim.dds, D50_rim00.dds, D50_rim01.dds, D50_rim02.dds file to "teams" folder, then rename them to:
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA3.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA300.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA301.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA302.dds

From now on, it's the same process as doing WCEXTRA for different skin liveries.

Here is a green color rim test on #1 car with blur effect (if don't want custom rim color, just remove those EXTRA2 EXTRA3 dds from teams folder, and then default rim will be used).

 

[mantasisg]

Thank you, svictor. We have to catalog your explanations into rF2 encyclopedia because they are so good. Now the process looks simple to me, just plenty of files.

 

[Chris Lesperance]

@mantasisg It's possible to customizable rim color with blur effect using "WCEXTRA".

Here is quick example using D50.

Things needs to change:

1. Open all GMT files that has "MERW125_SPOKES" & "D50_RIMS" material name, then rename "MERW125_SPOKES" to "WCEXTRA2", rename "D50_RIMS" to "WCEXTRA3", and save those GMT.

2. Open MERW125_SPOKES.json, change "name":"MERW125_SPOKES", to "name":"WCEXTRA2", and save. Then rename MERW125_SPOKES.json to WCEXTRA2.json. Do the same thing for D50_RIMS.json file to change "name":"D50_RIMS" to "name":"WCEXTRA3" and file name to WCEXTRA3.json.

3. Copy D50_spoke.dds, D50_spoke00.dds, D50_spoke01.dds, D50_spoke02.dds file to "teams" folder, then rename them to:
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA2.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA200.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA201.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA202.dds
Then copy D50_rim.dds, D50_rim00.dds, D50_rim01.dds, D50_rim02.dds file to "teams" folder, then rename them to:
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA3.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA300.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA301.dds
AlbertoAscari_01EXTRA302.dds

From now on, it's the same process as doing WCEXTRA for different skin liveries.

Here is a green color rim test on #1 car with blur effect (if don't want custom rim color, just remove those EXTRA2 EXTRA3 dds from teams folder, and then default rim will be used).

I believe "WCRIMS" is a workable wild card as well. I forget what mod I specifically saw that in. The Indycar 1985 I think. I know it was something that I painted a while ago. This is a good call out for the animations on it.

 

[Coutie]

I believe "WCRIMS" is a workable wild card as well. I forget what mod I specifically saw that in. The Indycar 1985 I think. I know it was something that I painted a while ago. This is a good call out for the animations on it.

These are the WC textures, most aren't used anymore:
carbody - surprise, the car body
window
windshieldin
windshieldout
windowsin
windowsout
rims
swheel - the track map
driver
arms
wing
helmet
pitbody - the person who waves you out of the garage
pithelmet
lollipop
refueler
extra0 - these can be whatever you want
extra1
extra2
extra3
extra4
extra5
extra6
extra7
extra8
extra9
pitbox - the pit box, the stock car leagues use this, not sure if anything else does

 

[jimagn]

Can't wait! Excellent choice.

 

[mantasisg]

That list of wildcards is also good for advanced rF2 modding documentation.

Perhaps anyone knows how to make longitudinal suspension arms to move nicely ? My just don't work. In lateral direction suspension does flex and imitate pivoting. Looks ok. But longitudinally it is not working. I have just checked Brabham BT20 mod, it has them working well. But I can't see why.

If I can fix that, I could release car tomorrow.

Just tested in Monaco, very nice. Needs little bit setuping to behave, but not much. It is nice and exciting in old SPA too, but a little bit to severe through bumps. Thats a shame, because otherwise FFB is just best, now will have to reduce the strength a little...

Few screenshots:

Few more: https://imgur.com/a/1uplfPK

 

[mantasisg]

Problem:

Sorry for the drawing lol But I can't get the longitudinal arm to stop moving at carbody attachement point. It spoils whole car immersion. Can't release. The green part moves alright, responds well to damage.ini SuspConn params.

I tried and didn't work, and gave no change at all: Changing pivot point of objects. Renaming material to [car]_susp. Messing with [vertex] section of damage.ini. Adjusting chassis ini geometry to closer resemble position of that arm, although it shouldn't interfere with lateral movement arch. Tried editing .pm file for same reason. I looked for possible solutions through .gen file, but can't see anything.

I have been looking at Brabham BT20 mod to find an answer, but can't see it. SkipBarber seems like it has same problem as I do, but it is difficult to see with its short wheels travel.

I am running out of ideas. How can I fix those few vertexes at the end of longitudinal arm, so they would stay there ?

 

[mantasisg]

Car just got released

Steam Workshop version 0.8:https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3415205058

Big thanks to Mexes1978 for providing me his wonderful well prepared model.

Also thanks for very nice placeholder sounds authors. Thanks to @svictor for helping me much and saving me from lots of trouble and wasted time.

Implementation and physics are done by me.

I think it is fine car as it is. Looking forward for feedback.

Issues prevailing or things left to do:
- clean up add details to skins;
- icons;
- adjust and improve lodding;
- optimise textures;
- rear longitudinal arm movement (wasted lots of time with that already);
- upgrades/t45 stuff (continental tires, etc);
- car body rain controls (Just saw new tool that Svictor made);
- make rear bonnet to be debris (thinking if it is worth doing it, would be nice to expose well modeled engine);
- showroom wheels float (have some suggestions what to try to solve this, just noticed I have same issue with Lancia D50);
- diffuse tread texture improvement (it would look better on overcast conditions);
- shortening physical suspension arms and reducing scrub radius as much as reasonable

Would have done this now, but it might make or break the physics, and I would need to spend days to recover the car handling to where it is now, if it would be even possible. Right now I am very pleased with the handling. But even now you may sometimes experience how rear outside tire runs out of camber and thus grip at large drift angles, with lots of roll and compression. And als ofor that reason there might be some more fluctuation of grip during bigger slides. You need to take sliding delicately with this car, it does them very pleasantly then.

Lower front and rear physical arms are most definitely too long. A lot of that is because I made upper arms long. It is not entirely obvious how to set up upper arms pivoting, when they are also tranverse leaf springs. It would look like they should be where leaf srpings are restricted vertically to body connections, I have tried so, but it resulted severely degrading car handling.

I will also try to reduce scrub radius of front suspension on second geometry pass, although one can see this car just simply had plenty of it.

- rim blur alpha blending sorting too high, blends out in dust and spray;

- AI assigned upgrades selection (if you choose 1.5L engine, AI will use it);
- add backfire effect object;
- water and oil gauges non-linear needle travel needs fine djustments, even with svictors tool and information I have tough time understanding what is going on with those.

Car also needs further graphical optimisation. It is very detailed model, and there plenty of big detailed textures. Although Lods are included, and they do reduce the size of a car from 130000tris to roughly 40K tris. I should probably make loddign more aggressive, and add third level Lods to some objects. And just as much importantly I probably could reduce sizes of several textures.

I really really really want to solve longitudinal rear suspension arm issue. Without it visually car would be almost perfect.

Few notes on car:

• Should be good up to 6500rpm, you can safely rev up to 7000, maybe a little higher, but don't abuse that;
• Three engines available 1.5L, 2.0L and 2.2L. 2.2L is a bit fragile comparing to other two;
• Try to keep engine temps in between 100-110C, can go up to 122C for little bit;
  
• Modern Hostorics version included with better brakes, more power, more grip and stiffer susp, but don't abuse revs;
• Brakes are good to up around 500C, above that fading gets strong fast. In some tracks you might experience bias change due to fading;
• Car is very light and with very light unsprung masses, it also has lots of scrub radius, due to that it is rather violent through very bumpy speedy sections, such as SPA and Pescara straights, be careful, maybe even take it slower;
• You might attempt using positive camber to reduce scrub radius a lottle bit, and maybe lesser caster angle;
  
• Give 1.5L engine a chance, it is still fast and it was what car was designed for;
  

Some of my pace test results:

• 4:05 at Belgium with 2.2L engine;
• 10:20 at Pescara with 1.5L engine and some driving through concrete bollards and not being afraid of chassis detaching on straights;
• 1:38:7 at Zandvoort with 2.0L engine before death became innevitable;
• 1:43:6 at Monza with 2.2L engine;
• 1:41:5 at Monaco with 2.0L engine risking to dive into the sea;
  
  I hope you have fun, good luck.

 

[mantasisg]

For the FFB feelers out there, I think this car has it.

I hope people won't miss out too much on this car. It is perhaps most underrated legendary F1 car, well, the Cooper T51 surely was. But T51 was basically updated and improved T45 in every way.

Random thought. Third car in the row gives me something that I spend tons of wasted time.

911s gave me lots of trouble trying to get rim blur working, but with no attempt on PBR yet. It wasn't that much wasted, only perhaps two days, and it was smooth work with that car so far.

911RSR gave me at least a full day of wasted time trying to figure out why onboard camera was swaying around.

With W125 I was dying unsuccessfuly trying to get PBR rims blur and tires blur to work. At least four-five days of fruitless time spent. It wasn't till Lancia D50, when I was enlightened about what is happening with that stuff.

With Lancia D50 it was literally a week of trying to get my own sounds working, which effortlessly worked on first try, but after that strangely not anymore. Mystery that stays unsolved.

With this Cooper the ultimate time waster turned out to be longitudinal arm movement at body attachment point.

I am still looking for a project where I could just simply do it smoothly.

 

[svictor]

This car feels absolutely wonderful and beautiful, just had an hour with this car fighting through old SPA, extremely challenging and barely survived a lap, great fun and a lot more to learn from its control and handling, thanks for the amazing work.

 

[mantasisg]

Thanks. Spa indeed is not easy with this particular car. It better does on smoother and less high speed tracks. Nature of the car. I was doing as fast as 4:05 there without too much crazy risking. Matching Brabham laptime, although probably with more powerful engine than his. This pace is good match to Lancia-Ferrari D50 in same track.

I am planning to improve its geometry though. Perhaps will take SPA bumps a little less roughly. Although I would very much love to keep its essential character, I like it very much. And FFB is great, in my opinion.

Already looking forward to T51 (once I am ready). Gordon Murray said that car had everything, and he wish he would have designed it haha

 

[Corti]

Isr F1 1950 server ready for an experience with this pair of GREAT CLASSICS at Spa and Montecarlo

 

[mjo1704]

I know the car is not ready yet but will the car have dynamic reflections on the body like the lancia d50 car
the car has good physics and driving feel and great sounds
thanks a lot for the mod

 

[Chris Lesperance]

For the FFB feelers out there, I think this car has it.

I hope people won't miss out too much on this car. It is perhaps most underrated legendary F1 car, well, the Cooper T51 surely was. But T51 was basically updated and improved T45 in every way.

Random thought. Third car in the row gives me something that I spend tons of wasted time.

911s gave me lots of trouble trying to get rim blur working, but with no attempt on PBR yet. It wasn't that much wasted, only perhaps two days, and it was smooth work with that car so far.

911RSR gave me at least a full day of wasted time trying to figure out why onboard camera was swaying around.

With W125 I was dying unsuccessfuly trying to get PBR rims blur and tires blur to work. At least four-five days of fruitless time spent. It wasn't till Lancia D50, when I was enlightened about what is happening with that stuff.

With Lancia D50 it was literally a week of trying to get my own sounds working, which effortlessly worked on first try, but after that strangely not anymore. Mystery that stays unsolved.

With this Cooper the ultimate time waster turned out to be longitudinal arm movement at body attachment point.

I am still looking for a project where I could just simply do it smoothly.

First time rF2 modding Just kidding

I'm about to go through about my 4th or 5th round of redoing aero on a couple cars. I had everything very close using the FW as the mainplane and utilizing the "fenders" as FW winglets. But I found out after there is an rF2 bug that the winglets will change back to the default setting when you load into the track. It appears this bug won't be fixed. So I'm rolling back to having both elements on the FW.

Luckily the 1950s cars don't have much for aero. For me, I have no idea how long it'll take. I hoping it'll just take a week or two to combine those two elements. Realistically, I'm sure it'll be close to a month to get it right. And that is using a couple custom pages I've added to the spreadsheet to make it easier to digest. Balance changes with ride height is killer. I've lost months of my life getting it to this point, and that's not even adding in the stress

I haven't had an opportunity to try the Cooper yet, but I'm sure it's great! I'm not sure about the swing arm issue. I because the arm is parallel to the body, either they would need to be static with the body or as is with the suspension. The damage.ini only lists 2 points for the SuspConn. I believe the two points just "skew" the suspension model. Because the swing arm is parallel, it doesn't stay fixed to the body.

While I have fun with it, it does wear on a person. I just wished there was some additional math or formulas where if you have some actual info, or know what you need, that it would just give the rF2 values you need to enter. I haven't even started on tires But it is an amazing feeling once it is released and people enjoy it.

OT: It's something that makes me interested in Marcel Offerman's "Last Garage" game. The focus on the suspension geometry will be cool to see, as I know rF2 doesn't really do multilink/pushrod/pullrod/rocker arm suspension well. You have to massage the numbers instead of using the actual suspension points.