Competition System Blog | Week 2

Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by Paul Jeffrey, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. Paul Jeffrey

    Paul Jeffrey Administrator Staff Member

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    Hello sim racers!

    The second of our weekly Competition System Blog postings is now live for your reading pleasure.

    Check it out here: https://www.studio-397.com/2021/01/csblog-week2/

    Remember, any questions you want answering in future blog posts, feel free to drop them in the comments section below!

    Comp System.jpg
     
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  2. Lateralus21

    Lateralus21 Registered

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    Confirmed that you will always need to own every car in a server to join, not just the one you want to drive. :-( Just my opinion but this is the biggest drawback to rFactor2.
     
  3. Alexandre Martini

    Alexandre Martini Registered

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    yeah, i see how that can hinder initial adoption, but in the end this is still A LOT cheaper than iracing, for example.
     
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  4. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    Apart from the Free Content Servers/Comps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  5. Lateralus21

    Lateralus21 Registered

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    If they would put individual cars on sale that would help. Seems like every sale you need to buy 4 cars again that you already own to get the 2 you don't. Great for newcomers and yes the prices aren't bad but it's irritating to have content rearranged in the sales to the point where there is almost always already owned content in it. I hope it takes off, not a fanboy or hater, it's just too bad some things are beyond the point of making them better for the consumer. Just my opinion.
     
  6. burgesjl

    burgesjl Registered

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    Even if you have to own all cars to enter a competition, you should not be required to own all tracks used in one where there are multiple venues. For example current GTE comp has Reiza tracks which I don't own so I can't sign up. Obviously you can't join a session for a track you don't own. Note iRacing have the concept of drop weeks to count only 8 of 12 weeks in a season. That allows you to score competition points even if you have skip weeks by choice or not owning a given track.
     
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  7. instinkt

    instinkt Registered

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    I think if they could discount single items at similar rate as bundles more than 75% people would be happy even if having everything would still be required
     
  8. Mitch9

    Mitch9 Registered

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    The package system is the same for all content, so it imposes the same limitations on both cars and tracks. Having ocasional discounts on single items would be great but hard to picture a viable scenario.
    Maybe in a later competition where, say, the only paid content used is the bmw cs2, would it make sense to offer a discount for that car alone.
     
  9. Alexandre Martini

    Alexandre Martini Registered

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    or maybe start with one or two cars in GTE, for example.

    that way, people don't have to buy 8 cars to race with only 1.

    it's a bit harsh because you limit the choices, but still better because more people can race now that the system is so restrictive.
     
  10. TheGame316

    TheGame316 Registered

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    Warned about this right at the announcement of paid DLC and Competition System. The noise has gotten louder with every addition to existing classes, causing more fragmentation. S397 had the chance and opportunity back then to overhaul the content system(which could have been planned with the UI and CS) but did not. At this stage, the only way I see being helpful would be single item discounts, but with mention of future "bundles" I am not hopeful as this suggestion has been made before. Another suggestion made is that if the CS is only to include "official" content, then this should have been made different(external to workshop)

    I have not tried competition yet(working on a mod, and the 2 times I tried, the servers were down), but if competitions/races are being set up with multiple tracks, then I am sorry, but that makes no sense. If I want to drive GTE's at LeMans now, why should I need Spa for the next scheduled race? This is exactly why the current packaging system does not suit the competition system.
     
  11. Hocician

    Hocician Registered

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    @ TheGame316
    To put server on where you need all tracks of a season (for example) and you cant participate if you dont own every single track of that season is a absolutely nogo!! This is totaly right!

    @ the discount discussion... a discount is a goody - if it not fit for you... you dont have to... take it or leave it! I think there should be some official cup races with cheap and/or single cars like Porsche Cup or BMW CS2 so that everybody can have a race... But the discussion "make everything and every car a discount" cant be the right answer for Studio 397... The people have to understand that they dont bought a EA or Codemaster Game where they have to buy a new game for 50 bucks every year ... this is a growing game/platform and i think you have to understand that there is a service where you have/should pay for... What is the problem with paid content...? Yeah, if you´re new it is maybe a lot of content you have to pay for but you dont have to race and own every DLC and car! If you like it and have fun with a cup car, buy the GTE Pack and you have a massive content upgrade with a lot of new cars and classes for a fair price (in my oppinion) And i think rF2 is not that game that have to pick up every gamer/simracer in the world ... ;-) most of us dont need people which dont understand a game like RF2 and arent ready to pay for quality cars and tracks...
    Dont understand that... Buhuuu i own a car for 3.99$ and now you make the GTE pack with a discount of 50% and when i now buy the pack with a car that i own allready i have to pay the car a second time... "boah" its 3.99$... this is a burger, a pack of cigarettes, a beer in a club... WTF!!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  12. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I think the last thing you'd want to do is encourage someone to buy a car standalone. Anyway, how can you properly test different cars if you only buy 1? And why miss out on simply the chance to drive the rest?

    They've often said the pricing reflects the nature of the system. That doesn't just mean things are cheaper in packs; it means if someone could buy 1 car and then take part in any competition that used that car (plus any others), each car would cost more to compensate.

    There are games that get minor updates every year but get rebranded and sold at full price. Even rF2's busiest development years have produced total content that costs less. No one's forced to buy all (or any of!) the DLC.
     
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  13. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    @Paul Jeffrey , here is said that we have to own all the cars and tracks included in a competition.
    I suposse that this is as is, becasue the packages system forces us to have all the content included in the mod.
    If this is the case, could be possible to make a competition with a mod per race?
    If this would be possible we could access to the races that we own the track without having all tracks.
     
  14. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    iRacing also has the concept to demand money for their service every month. With rF2 you have the prospect of using a similar system for free in the future if you aren't willed to spend the money or if you are short on it. All you have to do is get the basegame for 15 bugs and that's it. Btw, the Reiza bundles have been on sale with 50% discount the last couple of weeks, so you had the chance to get 4 different tracks for 7,50 Euro wich is a bargain to anything that you get in iRacing. I mean, it's your money and you are free to do with it what ever you want. I just think that this whole discussion about DLC and pricing structure get's a bit out of shape from time to time if we consider that you get half a track for that in iRacing without the option to even race it if you don't add tenner on top of it. Once you own the content there is no further investment involved in rF2, so all in all it's quite fair. In that sense the package system is propably S397s best way to even earn some money so they won't shoot themself in the foot. I would be interested in the numbers, but I suspect the numbers for the Tatuus series have been higher.

    In a perfect world there were no obstacles for anyone to enter the servers, but S397 are running a business after wall that needs some cashflow in return to keep the servers and development going.
     
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  15. Neil Tyler

    Neil Tyler Registered

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    As far as I am aware, your copy of rFactor2 needs to have all the cars that are on a server installed so that it can render them on your screen.
    If you don't have the cars you'll be racing against 19 yellow blobs.

    I agree with Lateralus21's point though, there are too many crossovers meaning having to buy a bundle that might have 1 or 2 cars/tracks that you already have without any sort of discount.
     
  16. Neil Tyler

    Neil Tyler Registered

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    Can someone, please, explain the scoring system of the Tatuus winter series to me?

    Thanks.
     
  17. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    A few notes on the Packaging System and the need to buy All Content to Race;

    I'm sat here enjoying the Cricket, Sri Lanka bowled out cheaply and as I type ROOOOOT and Bairstow batting strong. It makes me appreciate the simple things in life, watching Cricket being one of them, something that was taken away last year due to the Pandemic, there were no drunken sunny afternoons in the Deck Chairs at Hove for me :(

    What the hell has that got to so with RF2 you ask? Focus on the "simple things", something that RF2 can and cannot be both at the same time - the Packaging System is one of those things. It all goes back to S397s predecessor ISI, I remember discussions back in 2012/13 about it and how it might affect the Sim as a whole, both Pros & Cons of the System were discussed and ranted about but ultimately it's what ISI designed and we had to live with it whether we liked it or not, which is fine, it was their choice for their Sim. Now as Marcel explains quite clearly in the Competition System Week 2 Blog and I quote: "So this would require a huge technical change, basically a rewrite of how the package system works." it shows us that, like above, it's what ISI designed, S397 have made their choice and we have to live with it whether we like or or not.

    No when S397 took over they listened to the Community, they immediately started out on developing the DX11 Graphical Engine Switchover (which helped bring in VR), they set about releasing more Series Based Content, Weather improvements, general Feature additions, Performance Improvements, Bug Fixes, Major Online Improvements, tweaks & such like and they then started on the UI and what we have now the Competition System. I don't think there's any doubt that if they would've chosen to change the Packaging System then most/none of the above (well maybe apart the Content additions) would've come to fruition. Instead they may well of spent 4 years on that and very little else, in all honesty which would you rather of had these past 4 years? Nothing and a Sim that would've stalled since 2016 or a Sim with all those Features (and more) and the need to just "put up with" the Packaging System? For me it's clear, I would take the former hands down as RF2 might not even be here if they had chosen the latter route.

    Side thoughts; Nothing in life is Free Per Se, there's a price for everything and our hobby can be expensive, as I sit behind my PC watching the Cricket on my overly expensive Pay Monthly Mobile Phone I gaze upon a £2000 PC, £500+ of Peripherals, £300+ Rig and that's before I've bought the OS, Applications, and then come the Games & Simulators themselves.....this ain't free!
    So why is it then that certain sections of the Sim Racing Community find it so hard to part with their cash in relatively small amounts for DLC? EVERY TIME there's a News Thread at RD about DLC Content it's blistered by the same "too pricey" & "rip off" comments even when in reality it's an absolute BARGAIN at times and I'm talking about ALL the Sims here not solely RF2.
    Here though take the current Reiza Track Pack for RF2 for example, it's currently £13.24 (£8 in a recent Steam Sale I'm led to believe) for Four Tracks so roughly £3.31 Per Track, that's less than the Price of a Beer, is that really expensive? or is that actually very cheap considering the amount of hours of fun you could have on that track? Think about it, how much did you spend on that Curry last Friday that you didn't need to buy but couldn't be arsed to cook? If you can't afford those luxuries then you can't afford DLC so then DLC Price should be the least of your worries quite frankly. An Airport in MSF2020 costs upwards of £15, 1 Airport at that and not a very big one, you're getting FOUR tracks here for relatively the same price and I'm not including the other 6 Layouts in that picture - we've got it easy in Racing Land I can tell you, a quick look at the Marketplace in MSF2020 and I've already eyed up £100 worth of Content on 1 page....you'd be hard pressed to spend that much on all RF2 Content!
    IMO there's little point 'Beating The Dead Horse' about it forever more. No one in Sim racing is EVER "forced" to buy anything, it's your choice and if you have money to burn and enjoy the Sim in question then it's a no brainer to me, if you're reluctant that's just fine too as you'll still have the Free Content Comps to drive in and you can await the Steam Sales to grab a Bundle extra cheap, if you're a cheapskate that wants everything for free then there's the door...don't slam it on your way out!

    Ok back to the current Competition System and the way the Packaging System is going to work; Alongside the Free Content Competitions where your only purchase is the Base Game you will have other Competitions with DLC, Yes you will need to Buy a Pack or Bundle (as in the Blog the prices/discounts will be favourable, and then don't forget the Steam Sales) to participate. Looking at it from the outset it does seem like quite a purchase, Cars & Tracks could cost anywhere from £5 to £20 for the lot depending on the Content in the Comp used and the annoying part is you might not use all the Content (which is where the argument comes from and is fair enough). But as above the chances of the Packaging System changing are extremely thin going by what Marcel has said, but tweaks & changes to the Comp Structure & Content Used on a Per Comp Basis will happen to help into the future, as it is still in BETA don't forget.

    I certainly appreciate it may look Pricey if you're new to RF2 and/or have come from other Sims with different Pricing Models, but you don't have to enter EVERY Competition and buy ALL the DLC Content on Day 1. I do agree it's incredible annoying to Buy stuff you'll likely never use but there is no other way and as above it's relatively cheap especially when you open your eyes and appreciate what Life Costs to live in!
    Ultimately though it is the way it is whether you/me like it or not, enjoy what we've got with all these Sims for all their Pros & Cons - See you on track & Happy Racing :)
     
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  18. TheGame316

    TheGame316 Registered

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    I think you don't really have a choice with the system as is; especially if you want to participate in GT3/E classes at the moment. Consolidation was done last year, but we are already at a point where you require 1 pack and a single car for GT3; 2 packs and a single car for GTE. This effectively punishes the people they want to attract to their servers.
    Considering their choice suggestions have been made; like the single item discount during sales, which would make those that keep content up to date feel like they are getting something in return for being loyal. Another suggestion would be some form of licence/passport, where at any time if you own a percentage of content, you would get a percentage discount off purchases. eg own 50% get 10% off, 75%-20% off.

    A huge technical change, that if they listened to the community, especially when trying to separate their "official" content from modded content would have made more sense than the current short sighted mess every time new content in multiple vehicle classes is released.(Hypercars around the corner, add another Endurance Pack...)

    Everytime though, it is made out that the problem is money; that a piece of content is "less than the Price of a Beer". It's not, it is about fragmentation of an already niche userbase.
    And thats before setting up CS servers with multiple tracks, when I thought the whole idea of a competition system was to encourage more pick-up racing; just to throw up roadblock after roadblock.
     
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  19. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    I think you miss the point of Marc's post a bit. The changes that they made to the graphics engine (rewrite, DX, VR ...) competition system, weather stuff, content and stability were done based on user request aswell, not because they thought "Oh, what are we gonna do today?". Same as a potential change for the packaging system, all this leads to conflicts of how you prioritize development. As you might have noticed, they aren't developing with unlimited ressources either. The packaging system for me personaly has some very nice advantages that I don't want to miss.

    On another note, from what I've gathered the pickup racing in rF2 basicly jumped from zero to people racing on a regular base. So I would hardly call it a short sighted mess. And again, why have people the feeling that they get punished all the time if they have to spend money on quality content? Content that is sold in packs get's discounted and if you aren't completely ignorant you wait for sales. I bought the Reiza pack at release - do I think that I get punished because I have payed more than people who have the chance nowadays to get it with discount? People allways think that they buy content a second time, even if the packs are bargain. I don't get it. Get it for the best price and be happy. You won't have hundreds of 488 GT3 in the game. If we were living in a perfect world it would all be for free. But I hope that people see that software development isn't cheap.
     
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  20. stonec

    stonec Member

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    Small correction, it won't let you join the server at all if you don't have the content. You need to obviously have the content installed to join, but that's the same for every other sim. The difference is that some sims like iRacing let you race against cars you haven't bought, so it obviously keeps them installed for you, but won't let you pick them as drivable cars.

    Herein lies the challenge with the packaging system. I actually think that the point @TheGame316 makes is sensible. There shouldn't be any extra barricades in place and it's especially important to make it easy for new users to join these competitions. It's not so much about price, but offering an easy way to get people into the game. This is what every gaming company should think about, it's the reason why most of mobile games are free to install (we don't have to go that far). The technicalities with solving this is the real issue. I'm quite sure we would have an option to join with one car if they built it from scratch today.
     
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