[REPLACED] Chevrolet Camaro GT3 v1.2 Released

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 88mphTim, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. Panigale

    Panigale Banned

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    @Matt, yes, dive bomb the car into a corner and correct and throttle steer to hold the line and it will cook the fronts. Tim has mentioned before this isn't the way to drive the GTs (you have as well) and I think everyone agrees with that. The point is should the tire model in the sim respond this way and allow for a faster lap?

    As you said, we don't know, but that remains the question. I appreciate your comments since you are seeing it from another perspective. And I do think what we have here in this sim is excellent, very lucky to have something this good so I'm not criticizing ISI. I just think the GT tire model has a pinch of Tokyo Drift spice in it.
     
  2. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    Yes, if you alter your driving style, you could be faster. It's not impossible. You can't find many real world examples for it, because no real driver will drive that badly. And they won't, because over the course of a race it will be slower, and there is a greater chance of a mistake, among other reasons.

    Why do you think it isn't possible to use another technique and be faster, or to heat the tires in different ways? Nobody is telling you that you can't. The fact that you are being punished for doing so, with increased heat and wear, is evidence of why it won't pay off long term, and why you don't see real guys doing it (especially in this age of using qual tires in races, no special qual tires, etc, etc, etc). The guy who drives correctly will always win in the end.

    Honestly, I've been around sim racing for years, I've seen a lot of "unrealistic" things in sims that I've then either seen, heard or been told about being a viable thing by either race engineers and drivers, that these types of discussions begin to border on manic laughter inside my head. Real drivers, drive like real drivers. They don't drive like an average sim racer. They drive, how they drive, for valid reasons. You have the same reasons (in the end) to drive that way in rF2.
     
  3. Matt Sentell

    Matt Sentell Member

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    Interesting. I'd like to see what that looks like in a direct video capture (ideally) or in a replay file. I'm sure there are people driving that way in servers I'm on but you can't judge much from remote cars because of the lag and missing data.

    Are you saying that for you this can yield a quicker lap time, or at least a quicker couple of corners? I'm pretty sure that's what you mean.

    One thing I've learned is that you can't judge this stuff according to what's faster for one driver versus another, so what a lot of people would do is they'd say, "well that's not how I'm driving and I'm faster than you." What you have to do is try and get as close to an apples-to-apples comparison with the same person driving, same tire wear, same track conditions, same setup - and then see what's faster for them.

    The question is elapsed time through a section if they drive right to the maximum of available grip versus overdriving the way you've described. If it's a lower ET by overdriving then I'd agree that's likely not right.

    I just question how scientifically this has been examined, but if someone showed me that data I'd agree there's an issue.

    Anecdotally, I haven't seen it. I can go into other not-to-be-named racing sims and see clear evidence of time gained when I overdrive. I've yet to see that in any of rF2's cars and I do overdrive them, sometimes by accident and sometimes intentionally. In my experience overcooking the entry of a corner just overheats the tires so much that the rest of the corner is compromised and I end up being slower. So while I might be quicker through that first half of the turn (as expected), it doesn't yield the lowest ET through the entire corner.

    But I could well be wrong.
     
  4. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    I'm personally wondering if there is a case of tires not being up to temp, then brought up when into the turn this way, sliding in, compared to them laying back on corner entry, and perhaps never getting heat into the tires, giving slower laptimes.
     
  5. Matt Sentell

    Matt Sentell Member

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    Maybe. I'd have to see it. Again just anecdotally, even when I slightly under-drive the entries I don't see much loss of time in the GT cars. Because of their forward weight distribution and high power in the case of everything but the Z, they tend to favor slow-in and fast-out more than they would if they were rear-engined. You just can't make or lose as much time in the entry phase as you can with say the formula cars, which is definitely a correct outcome for the physics.

    I've been racing the Formula 2 (modern) and FR3.5 a lot lately, and to go quickly in those requires really attacking the entry. You can dive in really hard and late and it doesn't overheat or overly abrade the front tires, which is how it should be.

    But with all that weight sitting up front in the GT cars it's easy to beat up the front tires over time, especially in the entry phase. Even if you have some understeer coming off the corner it's not so bad because a lot of weight is shifted rearward in that case.
     
  6. Panigale

    Panigale Banned

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    When Matt said it was possible to save the fronts (old thread), I tried it out and that worked. However, it did slow me down about a second or so, I would basically listen for tire noise and stay below that. I'm always willing to learn and I'm sure I could practice a lot more. The issue I had was the more I pushed the more I would tend to enter a corner faster thus getting into exactly what I was trying not to do.

    For me a sim is fun but also a tool so I'm 100% for improving my technique. I'm not trying to make it sound like I don't want to change my approach. It is just odd that I can drive the snot out of the F2 or FR35 while getting balanced tire wear and at the limit behavior feels very natural. All the detail about the tires are coming through the wheel. The GTs, for me anyway, require a more steady hand if I want to preserve the tires. If I drive them purely by feel I overdrive into almost every corner. I'll continue to work on slow in and fast out and see if I can get closer to my PBs.

    That all said, thanks for the hard work. rF2 has come very far since driver 85 and it keeps getting better. I'm looking forward to the Speed 8. I know it has a long way to go but will be worth it.

    Cheers.
     
  7. Panigale

    Panigale Banned

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    I'll try and get a reply file for you this week or I'll make a new one.

    That is correct. I can manage a 50.6 LRP ALMS layout in the C6R vs 51.5 driving slow in fast out method. Been a bit since I've been on Silverstone with the F2/FR35 but won't take me long to get back into that time.
     
  8. Matt Sentell

    Matt Sentell Member

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    Couple things:

    I don't "stay below" the tire noise in the GT cars. If you really do that, to the point that you aren't hearing any tire noise, then you'll be under-driving them. Part of the art, if you will, is finding that sweet spot where you're using all of the tire's grip, which means you will be very (very) slightly sliding but not excessively so. Being able to tell what that point is, and being able to do it consistently, is a big part of the game. Keeping the car balanced and using all four tires as equally as possible is the rest of it.

    Is that true to life? I can't tell you for certain but it seems right given my experience. Most people would immediately say, well you don't drive a real car by the sound of the tires, but in the cars I've raced you actually kind of do. Or at least the tire noise will tell you a lot.

    The only car (not kart) I've ever driven in real life at full-on racing speed is the Skippy. I didn't do a lot of races but I managed some 1:01's at the old (bumpy) Lime Rock Park. That was a good two seconds off track record pace but still 3+ seconds faster than Milka Duno. (True story, she was in my race group one weekend. :) )

    The Skippy slides around a lot though, and the tires make a lot of noise because they're fully grooved. But to go quickly certainly involved playing within this "zone" I'm talking about, where you're sliding a bit but not too much. Too much and you're slow, not enough and you're slow. The difference with something like the Skip is that you're sliding a lot more than you would be in a GT car on slicks. So in the GT car that zone is going to be smaller and harder to stay within. That said, the Skippy will teach you all you need to know about balance.

    But to get back to what you said, it isn't odd at all that you can "drive the snot" out of the F2 or FR3.5 and get more balanced wear. They're light and rear-engined, and they're designed from the ground up to have the snot driven out of them. :) GT cars, even if they're purpose-built race cars, are based on something that's road-going, and the regulations usually require that the cars retain some of that DNA. This in effect compromises them as racecars when compared to something like a formula car or Le Mans Prototype.

    I can't easily find you a reference for it but I've often read comments from F1 drivers about the difference between driving something like a GT car or a road car versus a formula car, and it's usually something along the lines of being able to "wring the neck" of the formula car. That's why they are, IMO, deservedly considered the pinnacle of the sport. They demand the most from the driver, and they're very hard work by comparison.

    When I see people say the Camaro in rF2 is hard work I just think, well you're doing it wrong then. The car has such limited performance that it's relatively easy to get the most out of it. Relatively. Meaning relative to the FR3.5, which is really insane to draw the maximum from. I did a race in it this past weekend that was just 30 minutes at Mid-Ohio and I was sweating at the end. That usually doesn't happen.

    Anyway, kind of rambling, but hopefully some of it's interesting. :) It's just that when I read some of your comments my immediate reaction is, "well yes, that sounds right." For instance when you say, "The GT's, for me anyway, require a more steady hand...". It just sounds so much like things I've heard rl drivers say over the years.
     
  9. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    One driver said a GT car drove like a tank compered with a Formula car or a kart. :)
     
  10. Miro

    Miro Registered

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    Just tried the car for the first time. Just a short run on Sebring. Like the sound very much.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2013
  11. DEK

    DEK Registered

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    The static friction of a tire obtained only through minimal slip of the tire on the asphalt. So maybe a minimal sliding is required if this is implemented into the tiremodel. As seen in real racing. Watch the slomotion replays in race broadcasting, there is always a certain amount of sliding.
     
  12. kaptainkremmen

    kaptainkremmen Registered

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    Yes, tyres are designed to work with some slip.

    I think when many people think of understeer and oversteer they always think of the exaggerated examples we see with fronts ends pushing hard or back ends kicking out.

    Late brakers complain of understeer when they are really just pushing the fronts too hard, many instances of oversteer are often related to bad throttle management and being too eager out of a corner.

    Get rid of the bad driving and oversteer and understeer becomes more about manipulation of that limited usable slip angle at each tyre.
     
  13. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    ...and not doing anything to the steering wheel as you exit. Spinning to the inside of a turn on exit can also often be because they didn't straight the wheel out smoothly or quickly enough in reaction to the throttle. Seen that a few times. :)
     
  14. John

    John Registered

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    Sometimes all it takes is careful application of Traction Control MK1. ie. That right foot.

    Slow in, fast out works best. Something I want to perfect before we get that Cobra ISI are working on. I like a car to squirm a little under brakes, turn in smooth, then power out with as little squirm as possible. This can be difficult when racing the AI as they tend to ram mid corner, but public servers are actually worse for that. :rolleyes:

    This is a nice car, but once that Lola T70 is released, I am sure nothing else will be driven for weeks.
     
  15. rogue22

    rogue22 Registered

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    This car has some crazy power on the low end. I find myself pulling away in 3rd gear instead of 2nd. Stay away from redline, there's no power there its all at the bottom. I found myself keeping it in gear and living off the low end torque than downshifting a gear. Especially in the fast sweepers at silverstone.

    After reading thru this thread I discovered a lot about what I've didn't realize and what was happening driving this car. Then something just instantly popped in my head. I remember a while back Sean Edwards ran with us at R2P.

    I hate to put words in his mouth and I wish he was here to clarify this, but he mentioned the fact that with GTR 2 you could really get away with pushing the car into the corners without abusing the tires which was something he felt was way off compared to driving his GT3 RSR in real life. I think this was part of the reason we could lap faster than the real life counter part. I couldn't understand what he meant until now.

    So I understand why Panigal might think its an exploit. Most of my GTR 2 setups where based off the fact that you could drive these cars into a corner hard, the tire model in GTR 2 was flawed to begin with, but most sims before it where more or less based the same way.

    Of course that was GTR 2, here in RF2, I think they finally nailed how a GT car is suppose to be driven. The way the tires are suppose to heat up if you dive into a corner on these cars was never simulated in a tire model until now and I think a lot of us (especially GT drivers) are having a hard time coming to grips with it so to speak. Its really hard to break away from controlled understeering and getting away with it all these years.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2013
  16. Panigale

    Panigale Banned

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    I appreciate the feedback Matt. I think the discussion and the input from everyone has been interesting and useful. I'll need to work on my GT skills. I do think it speaks highly of rF2 that we can compare RL track day experiences with what we feel in the game with the different mods. I'm obviously not pushing my street car on street tires that hard at the track but I have had guys running slicks in comparable cars have to wave me by. Doesn't mean much (track day talent runs the full spectrum) but always puts a smile on my face. :)
     
  17. DEK

    DEK Registered

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    That´s much easier in RL because you feel the rear end and the balance with your "popometer". :) In a sim FFB hasn´t got any chance to give you that sensor. Although, I remember some few mods in RF1 which emulated the g force in FFB very well. Even though they got some help from a good plugin...And that is the point: In sim we emulate.:)
     
  18. ZeosPantera

    ZeosPantera Registered

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    You need it in the FFB and the visual queues. Put some Exaggerated Yaw on and make sure your head actually has some movement.
     
  19. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    +1

    So many people like to kill these effects because it isn't realistic. Well it is one of the very few ways we have to communicate the grip levels.
     
  20. o0thx11380o

    o0thx11380o Registered

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    This might be a dumb question but what does exaggerated yaw do exactly? And what would it mean to go -100% VS +100%?
     

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