Better tire/tyre model on non-grip state. Currently is not realistic and way off ...

I understand that there is no theory for tire/tyre models on non-grip state, as you might say it is "black art". However, the rF2 cars behave way off from realistic, not even close. Please see the behavior of tyre/tire at non grip state in real life in following video. I wish rF2 developers will learn and came up solutions to over come this and at least make close to real as shown in the video. Developers need to learn three stages as real car can perform with factory settings as shown, to profile the behaviors, and come up a "black art" at least archive close to that, who can easily perform those three stages as real life:

Stage 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LpPc8qutCA&feature=youtu.be&t=3m00s
Stage 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LpPc8qutCA&feature=youtu.be&t=6m03s
Stage 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LpPc8qutCA&feature=youtu.be&t=8m16s

thanks

 

Could it have something to do with this? (these are changes made to the rFactor 1 engine in Automobilista, not sure if this has been "solved" in rF2 yet or not)
https://youtu.be/aoN8AdaOtK8?t=624

 

Improve your driving skill ans you will notice that its very easy to drift in rFactor2

 

rF2 tire model is actually based on a physical model of a tire, it's construction, and everything. So it's not something they tune back and forth depending on user liking, it's based on real parameters. No model is 100% realistic, but rF2 is the sim that many consider the most realistic.

If you want to be critical, you need to be more specific about what the problem is. "Better tire model in non-grip state" means nothing to a developer, there is no concrete feedback in this sentence.

 

Rf2's over the limit handling is not perfect, but it's closer to RL than any other sim imo. Joe, please explain to me how the technique I use in this video is any different from what Chris Harris is describing? I'm not the best drifter by any stretch, but notice how I control the throttle so that the engine is in it's power band throughout the corner and on exit. It looks easy, but it isn't. Not only do you need to counter-steer and 'catch' the slide at the right time to balance the front and rear, you then need to steer the car through the corner whilst counter-steering and modulating the throttle the right amount, then also make sure you have enough revs to keep the tires lit up on the exit so it's a smooth straighten up. The point is it's very possible to drift a car in rf2 like Chris Harris is explaining in the video, you just have to know what you're doing and practice a lot. It helps enormously when you have an appropriate car with a decent amount of steering lock!

The feel that I get when I drift in rf2 is exactly the same as what I get in real life, I don't have to adjust my driving style whatsoever when transitioning from one to the other. You might argue that the BMW in the video is a mod from rf1 with an older tire model, and I would respond by saying that the Honda NSX-R with the rf2 tire model is a superb car to drive over the limit, despite being under powered and mid engined.

I think that rf2's tire model has it's issues. I feel that in slower corners (i.e 50-60km/h) on corner exit there is too much understeer, i.e under light throttle the front of the car will push too much like you're on a greasy surface (particularly in the road cars). I also feel that mid corner, there is not enough rear lateral grip, and it's too easy to get the car to over-steer under throttle or while braking. This is only my subjective opinion based on 'feel' and my expectations of how a car I've never driven IRL should handle. When I tested the NSX-R at Suzuka, it was actually slightly faster than real life, and this was on a green track. So as much as I think the tires don't have enough lateral grip, without sufficient evidence to prove it, I trust the physics guru's at ISI more than my own uneducated opinion.

I think it's fine to criticize a video game or anything for that matter, but linking a video of Chris Harris drifting and then saying "rf2 cars behave way off from realistic", is clearly an argument from ignorance. You can control the car in all three stages, and drift EXACTLY like Chris Harris is explaining. It's just harder than you think.

 

^ +1

 

Yes, I have... hundreds of times. This video is a crude example of when I was still learning. I will admit that the corvettes aren't what you'd call easy to drift, but I put that down to what feels like a low revving lazy engine, what I think is a sold rear axle, and most importantly not enough steering lock. If your argument is that rf2 is too hard too drift, maybe you could be right, but that could be a lot to do with your hardware. I tweaked ffb settings a LOT to get things to feel right, and I'm sure if I upgraded to a thrustmaster it would be even better. Also, the biggest improvement I ever made drift wise was replacing the small g27 wheel with a larger and more solid steering wheel from a real car (not sure how the motors will cope!). Normal driving isn't that much better, but drift wise there is so much more control, you can spin the wheel much faster and catch it a lot easier.

If your argument is rf2 physics are wrong because you can't do stages 1,2 & 3, then I'm sorry, but you're wrong. With enough practice you can do it. I'm not saying over the limit handling is perfect, but imo it's currently the most realistic. I actually find drifting in AC much harder than rf2 believe it or not

 

Is it just me, haven't we already seen this entire thread before?

 

Yes, see the OP previous threads!

 

Yes, we have!

 

Joe, are you saying that you are struggling to drift at all, or only particularly with wide open throttle drifting? In order to drift with the throttle wide open, everything needs to come together pretty perfect, correct entry speed, the right amount of counter-steer, and the right line through the corner.

I invite you to try the following;

Select the NSR-R, 3.2lt v6, 205 tires, torque reactive diff and JDM ratios.

Load a track that you know really well that has some easy constant radius corners. Make you you increase the steering degrees from 900 all the way to it's max (very important). Increase caster to max, increase front camber to max, and also increase toe out (negative toe). Increase rear tire pressure.

Now practice car control for a few hours or so. Enter a corner a bit slower than race speed, turn in and give it throttle. As soon as you feel the back step out, lift of the throttle immediately. This is the hard part, 'catching' the slide, which requires you to get back on the throttle the right amount,with the right amount of counter-steer. Don't worry about wide open throttle at this stage, you'll need to modulate the throttle carefully while counter-steering to hold your line (not easy, but certainly can be done!).

Hopefully by chance, you will find the sweet spot where everything is balanced right. When you do, you can plant your foot and do a big wide open throttle power slide through the corner. If you choose to give this a try let me know how you go. Make sure you remember to increase the steering degrees.

 

Issue is NOT if rF2 or AC cars can slide or not. Question is if they can slide realistically, which means if they can easily slide with full throttle as shown in Chris Harris videos. He did all his stock cars in full throttle just as easily as shown in his videos on many other cars:
• Ferrari LaFerrari
• Ferrari F40
• McLaren MP4-12C
• Mercedes SLS AMG
and many more cars...

In real life as he showed again and again in three stages, the cars can achieve a metastability as full throttle applied with pretty much deterministic (and persistent) behavior (the more throttle, the better and the easier as he said and showed). I found both rF2 and AC cars are NOT.

BTW, I had a thread at general discussion forum for this before, trying get some polls on this question, but with disappointment. I put "wish list" here (as my wish or for benefit to others who may agree with me, or if developers buy into this). I have no interesting further argue on this. Believe whatever you like. Thanks for your reply anyhow.

 

Put me in a full motion rig with the best FFB wheel and realistic wrap around FOV, and I would probably drift just as well as I can IRL. There's many variables that can make rf2 seem harder than RL, ie. complete lack of inner ear pitch/yaw/roll.

I know you've heard all this before, which is why I've told you exactly what you need to do in order to see my point of view. I've given you a set up, go give it a go and you'll see that drifting in rf2 seriously isn't that hard once you learn. The NSX isn't an easy car to drift IRL, yet it can be drifted in in rf2 no problem. The BMW M5 is literally a piece of cake to drift. Do you drift in real life? I'm guessing no.

 

Sure, for learning drift, tune the car as you suggested "Increase caster to max, increase front camber to max, and also increase toe out (negative toe). Increase rear tire pressure.....Select the NSR-R, 3.2lt v6, 205 tires, torque reactive diff and JDM ratios."
There are tone of videos out there with great drifters doing that. What is point?

We are talking about physics in terms if realistic or not in a quasi-objective way by comparing to Chris Harris teaching video. All his cars shown on his videos are factory cars (no specific tuning for drifting). If you tune the sim cars for easy sliding, then you alter the "physics", we no longer talking about apple-to-apple comparison any more. Hence you are not able to pin point diff between them in terms of physics. Here is example I found a "perfect" video shown how good of AC car in comparison with real car:

If you believe this video, you may say that the AC is perfectly realistic (tyre model/physics is correct in sliding state)! But you have to concern the fact that the AC driver is one of the AC game developer. How did you know if he did not specifically tune the car to over fit that video? How many laps did he try in order to get those "perfect" matches? How many spin-off failures he got during trials? In the end of the video, they did put a note to stated "no scientific value" for this video.

Just be clear on this subject,I could be wrong though. Just like yourself there are many people, such at AC forum, think rF2 or AC sim cars are very realistic on non-grip state. But, many of them don't think so. At this moment, my doubt stays.

 

What cars are you testing these drifting techniques on in rF2? Because 95% of ISI-made cars are not street cars unlike in these videos, they are racing cars. A racing car with racing tires is generally much more edgy, take an F1 car as an extreme example, which is more or less impossible to drift.

In rF2 I recommend testing with Corvette C6 road car or Panoz Roadster. Both of these cars are extremely easy to keep in a drift, as shown in video below:

 

So the BMW E34 is a good example here. It does use some old rF1 values, but there values are very accurate. The tyres used in this mod are the NSX tyres, as there is a massive lack of rF2 street tyres available. The only 'new' rF2 feature this doesn't have is chassis flex, and the new CPM tyres as there aren't any available.

So, try the car with a stock setup. The car isn't setup to drift, it just has accurate values inputted by the original rF1 author who is all about realism.

Now just like in real life, the car is a natural drift machine. 340bhp, RWD, perfect weight distribution/balance, and a good amount of weight for momentum. So if you're a hooligan, you can drive this car sideways everywhere, and it's easy to do.

However, if you want to drive this car fast and set some good laptimes, then that is also possible and very very satisfying. And you don't need to do anything with the setup.

The joy of rF2 is that these realistic values were put into the game, and you get a realistic result. The tyres could do with more grip, but the NSX ones are all we have at the moment.

So unlike AC you don't need to create fancy drift versions, you just need the data, and the car will drift or go fast as you wish.

I don't really get your point about full throttle drifting. Unless the car is perfectly set up, and the conditions are perfect if you mash the throttle whilst drifting you'll kill yourself. Drifting is a delicate balance of steering input and throttle control, NOT stamping on the throttle and giving full opposite lock.

 

None of those cars you listed are available in rF2, nor are the cars shown in the videos. So while you argue about different setups, you should think about different cars and their throttle management first. All I see is you arguing for something based on feel and personal opinion. I think you actually need to bring some scientific facts to the table, because that's how simulation software development works. On a last note:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fepTbs7Yylk

 

Joe in all honesty I can understand where you are coming from. Drifting in sims seems much harder then it does in real life. That I agree on. We can also agree that the tires/physics in rf2 aren't perfect and 100% true to life. What you need to ask now is why is drifting so hard? Is it due to the physics/tires not being perfect, or is it due to the hardware, lack of feel etc? Who knows, maybe a more advanced sim will come along that has the most realistic everything and drifting will be really easy. Until something like that happens, we can only speculate with what we have.

Have you ever been 'in the zone' when playing a sim? You're not thinking at all, your hands are moving like crazy but they feel like they don't belong to you - it's all just automatic. You can get that feeling with drifting too. If you're thinking about what you're doing, you'll probably stuff it up. You have to practice so much that you can do it purely by feel - the kind of feel that makes drifting in real life so much easier.

None of us really know for sure whether rf2's over the limit handling is truly realistic - there's too many variables, not enough data etc etc. But here is something to think about - Chris Harris, Jeremy Clarkson, the guys at Motor Trend etc make drifting look easy - but it isn't. I have done some drifting in real life, and I have spun out many many times. You're balancing the car on a knife's edge. Now add to that some ****ty G27 ffb, some crappy plastic pedals and no seat of the pants feel. Logic suggests that drifting should be harder, no?

If you like drifting, then learn how to drift in rf2, and you will be amazed how easy it is once you have a feel for it. I really don't know how realistic it is, but it certainly feels realistic when you're in the zone.

In saying all of this, give me some more lateral tire grip damn it (lol)!

 

I think panoz + matsusaka east layout is good combination for tying those chris harris drifts, which are totally possible to do. It just requires well timed, accurate and quick enough steering inputs. Also the starting point coming to the corner is important. It was not easy for me, but with some amount of practice it would become easy, i think.

You need to remember that drifting in real life is easier than in sims even if the physics was 100% realistic, and that the amount of practice those car journalist have had for drifting is huge. It is not a wonder that it is easy for them, and that it is difficult for you to do it in a sim.

Also, any kind of latencies would make drifting very difficult.
Make sure that vsync is off and you have good fps. Also filter effects can cause latency to ffb. Feedback from your motion rig might be too delayed, making it more of a distractions than help. Also try to find info about the input lag of your screens.