Assetto Corsa Competizione

The magic number tire model from ACC also has a defect. 5 contact points are better than one as AC offered, but still not really up to date.
Therefore the behaviour is more script based. You get the maximum grip at 28psi, which is unrealistic because the contact area gets smaller as the grip increases. Even 1 psi less will cause a noticeable drop in lap times, whereas in reality the racing teams try to set the pressure as low as possible, which is why minimum pressures were prescribed in racing series such as Formula 1 and DTM, and even then the teams tried to artificially increase the pressure for the tests using tricks like preheated air in the tyres. It may be that the behaviour in rFactor2 is exaggerated, but it is basically correct, unlike ACC. Of course it is also easier for a generally much simpler tire model to integrate features like air pressure loss and aquaplaning, which here are simple routines instead of simulating the tire in its realistic behavior. The question is what you prefer. I prefer the model of Rfactor2 because it feels much better for me.
 
@hitm4k3r I would like to know which areas in ACC have forgotten? the visual damage maybe? I totally agree with williang83, rF2 looks like an alpha project, overall it's a mediocre product. In the time that rF2 introduced an interface, kunos has created a game from scratch, I can't hope for rF2. I am more excited about a project that has just started and that is already very good, it can only improve.
 
Andregee said:
The magic number tire model from ACC also has a defect. 5 contact points are better than one as AC offered, but still not really up to date.
Therefore the behaviour is more script based. You get the maximum grip at 28psi, which is unrealistic because the contact area gets smaller as the grip increases. Even 1 psi less will cause a noticeable drop in lap times, whereas in reality the racing teams try to set the pressure as low as possible, which is why minimum pressures were prescribed in racing series such as Formula 1 and DTM, and even then the teams tried to artificially increase the pressure for the tests using tricks like preheated air in the tyres. It may be that the behaviour in rFactor2 is exaggerated, but it is basically correct, unlike ACC. Of course it is also easier for a generally much simpler tire model to integrate features like air pressure loss and aquaplaning, which here are simple routines instead of simulating the tire in its realistic behavior. The question is what you prefer. I prefer the model of Rfactor2 because it feels much better for me.
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ACC simulates the tire using information from pirelli and that of the blancpain teams. As it should be. For Pirelli the pressure is optimal at 29psi although the teams usually lower this pressure a bit. Pirelli does not recommend lowering the pressure too much as it is easy to lose pressure on the curbs. I don't understand how you can talk about the complexity of the rF2 tire and the simplicity of ACC when you have not gutted it.
 
williang83 said:
Just because the physics is nice and the FFB is great it doesn't compensate the EXTREMELY MEDIOCRE rest of the software.
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The problem is exactly that. EXACTLY !!

These points are excellent and in my opinion better than all the other sims without exception :

- Physics engine (but completely incomplete [rain physics, gear change, ...] and ACC is quickly catching up with rF2 .......)
- FFB (really excellent on my perfectly tuned T300, and the best of all simulations)
- Realism (IMO) best of all sims for the ~40 cars made by S397 (outside of ISI)
- Sufficiently large variety of tracks (included modded tracks) and cars 100% created by S397

BUT

rF2 is bad on almost all other points, really incredibly bad despite more than 3 years of S397, knowing that what annoys me the most is the horrible AI and the bugs relating to the racing rules.

I have always been a big fan of rF2, never a fanboy like some (I am not referring to anyone in particular), but really my patience with these limits.

S397's priorities from the start are bad :

For example, the physics engine has really evolved far too little in more than 3 years.
It was the DNA of rF2, S397 should have invested a lot on it.
Instead, S397 has invested too much in the graphics engine, with fairly poor results, frankly.

In short, already that we are not many, many will abandon the ship.
I may be next, but I haven't made a decision.
 
williang83 said:
Is this a joke? rF2 can be simply described as jack of all trades master of none.
- The so praised tire model? Unfinished feature! Environment has no impact! Pressure has weird impact! Compound simulation is a joke! Temperature is a joke! I've seen more credible logic in arcade game. Don't get me wrong, it feels very dynamic but the combination of pressure/compound/wear/temperature/environment temperature is very very very very very very very lacking
- Raining? Unfinished feature!
- AI? Unfinished feature! Very dumb, unable to perform slip stream overtake, no strategies at all, etc...
- SP Gameplay? Extremely non existing even for 2000 games standards, even IR is moving toward improvements in this area, rf2 instead....
- MP Gameplay? Until competition is released, it's bad and limite
- Graphics? Have you ever raced in rain? Besides among all games rf2 is the one offering the worst streaming quality. The others really provide much more improved graphic quality when it comes to race streams.
- Car Simulation? Tell how realistic is drive train and transmission in rf2 again, please i'm all ears.
- Safety car logic? Complete mess and bad joke

So tell me again, how someone can be so blind and consider this never ending WIP game a complete in term of feature product! Just because the physics is nice and the FFB is great it doesn't compensate the EXTREMELY MEDIOCRE rest of the software.

Currently the market is pretty simple, MP wise iRacing is still the king, SP wise ACC (which i dislike since ....GT3) is the best overall option.
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I spent enough time with basicly every other product where I could apply your checklist aswell.
  • the tire model: despite some shortcommings and missing features it's regarded as one of the best, because if used the right way it will simulate a physical tire as no other tire model on the market and given the fact that other sims have their own issues, it's quite obvious that the tires in rF2 are atleast still relevant. I won't go into details where the other perfect products suffer, because this would end in another wall of text just for this point. iRacing with their neverending journey to produce something that could atleast be described as a tire is a perfect example
  • Rain? There is barely any game where it works rock solid and each of the sims that offer it have pros and cons when it comes to the feature. And you wanna know what? rF2 is the only moddable sim with rain where you can plugin liveweather into the game and it works solid for most of the cars
  • AI is something where I see constructions sites in any sim. I am 5 hours into the ACC carreer and I wonder if I really should go ahead because the AI is still on the same artifical idiocy level that it was with AC (wanna have a video proof?)
  • the SP gameplay is as good or bad as in any other current gen sim, maybe with PC2 offering the best "experience"
  • MP gameplay is just fine on my end and I see no reason why people wouldn't be able to use the MP, especialy since the new UI offers much needed improvements in that area. Still some things that would be nice, but it isn't any worse than any other title and has quite a few good areas like netcode and contact detection and the upcomming competition integration will improve it even more - what's not to like?
  • graphics are fine and functional and still impoving. maybe not the best but also not the worst and I would argue that you won't find any other open platform with the same set of features and graphics fidelity - you get the drift now?
  • car simulation? is this a joke? Sure drive train features are missing, but you get some nice features that aren't implemented anywhere else to the same level of detail or at all
  • safety car logic is indeed bugged, but again: wich other sims atleast offer the option to use one? if they fix it, wich is still a possiblity I see it still being usable in the future, even for MP usage
All in all I could go on. There are areas where rF2 is unbeatable and it's the reason why the user base is ever expanding and why the sim is broadcasted to half a million people. If it wasn't for the nice workshop integration, wich makes every other mod integration look like something from twenty years ago, for the nice set of rules wich are basicly noneexistent in many other titles and nicely detailed integrated features like pitlane logics, solid AI with some top notch player awareness, detailed session settings and the whole customizability for users to expand their experience as they please, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And if you can't see that the FFB is still one if not the biggest selling points of rF2, then I can't help myself but wonder if you really tried every sim as I did. And yes, it's a neverending WIP. If you haven't understood what ongoing development means after allmost ten years of that game being publicy available, then you certainly have purchased the wrong product. If I were a customer with some common sense I would be glad to get product support for ten years. But it seems that some people take this for granted, while Lord Kunos has sold out and moves on and allmost everybody applauds. Wierd, isn't it? :)
 
hitm4k3r said:
I spent enough time with basicly every other product where I could apply your checklist aswell.
  • the tire model: despite some shortcommings and missing features it's regarded as one of the best, because if used the right way it will simulate a physical tire as no other tire model on the market and given the fact that other sims have their own issues, it's quite obvious that the tires in rF2 are atleast still relevant. I won't go into details where the other perfect products suffer, because this would end in another wall of text just for this point. iRacing with their neverending journey to produce something that could atleast be described as a tire is a perfect example
  • Rain? There is barely any game where it works rock solid and each of the sims that offer it have pros and cons when it comes to the feature. And you wanna know what? rF2 is the only moddable sim with rain where you can plugin liveweather into the game and it works solid for most of the cars
  • AI is something where I see constructions sites in any sim. I am 5 hours into the ACC carreer and I wonder if I really should go ahead because the AI is still on the same artifical idiocy level that it was with AC (wanna have a video proof?)
  • the SP gameplay is as good or bad as in any other current gen sim, maybe with PC2 offering the best "experience"
  • MP gameplay is just fine on my end and I see no reason why people wouldn't be able to use the MP, especialy since the new UI offers much needed improvements in that area. Still some things that would be nice, but it isn't any worse than any other title and has quite a few good areas like netcode and contact detection and the upcomming competition integration will improve it even more - what's not to like?
  • graphics are fine and functional and still impoving. maybe not the best but also not the worst and I would argue that you won't find any other open platform with the same set of features and graphics fidelity - you get the drift now?
  • car simulation? is this a joke? Sure drive train features are missing, but you get some nice features that aren't implemented anywhere else to the same level of detail or at all
  • safety car logic is indeed bugged, but again: wich other sims atleast offer the option to use one? if they fix it, wich is still a possiblity I see it still being usable in the future, even for MP usage
All in all I could go on. There are areas where rF2 is unbeatable and it's the reason why the user base is ever expanding and why the sim is broadcasted to half a million people. If it wasn't for the nice workshop integration, wich makes every other mod integration look like something from twenty years ago, for the nice set of rules wich are basicly noneexistent in many other titles and nicely detailed integrated features like pitlane logics, solid AI with some top notch player awareness, detailed session settings and the whole customizability for users to expand their experience as they please, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And if you can't see that the FFB is still one if not the biggest selling points of rF2, then I can't help myself but wonder if you really tried every sim as I did. And yes, it's a neverending WIP. If you haven't understood what ongoing development means after allmost ten years of that game being publicy available, then you certainly have purchased the wrong product. If I were a customer with some common sense I would be glad to get product support for ten years. But it seems that some people take this for granted, while Lord Kunos has sold out and moves on and allmost everybody applauds. Wierd, isn't it? :)
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I agree with rF2 being the most feature rich product on the market, and that's exactly why I come back, every time I am trying to explore alternatives. Yes, polish is lacking, but question is - what's better, unfinished features, or features missing whatsoever? In my book, if SC is fixed and online experience is improved (yellow car, invisible cars, freezes), there's simply nothing else that comes close currently.

Another area where rf2 outshines competition hands down - rich internals model. ACC seems like promising product, there's nothing more I crave than full series immersion. But lack of quality data coming out of game really makes it not an option to me, because quality Crew Chief integration is not currently possible there (and we are not the only tool devs struggling making sense of ACC data). Also, SC is present in Blancpain series. Where is SC in ACC?
 
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It is always talked about when this or that "soon" works. But it doesn't. And not a member of S397 takes a stand on it. S397 leaves its customers in the rain and does not explain what they are currently working on. What are they working on at the moment? Again, not so long ago there was talk of bringing updates every week. What has become of it? We the community debate here without end (which is good / because our hobby). But where are the people in charge? I think as a paying customer I have the right to know what is currently being processed. When will my paid content finally be fixed? I paid for a service that obviously doesn't work properly. Why is it that it has not been fixed until today? Why don't countless features work as they should? Why S397? When I compare this situation with other studios, your customer service is absolutely poor. If I get a project imposed at work and only half-present it, what exactly will happen? How does it look? What does that say about me? What exactly does that say about S397? The organizational structure and management decisions of S397 look more than modest from the outside. You might think that one doesn't know what the other is doing. Apparently this is not the case. Content is offered that sets new standards "can" / "could". there is the obvious lack. Why is it that several projects are started, but almost none is completed? From the outside, this looks absolutely unprofessional. It looks like this or this content is arbitrarily fixed a little. Then nothing happens again for a long time. The community is frustrated and sometimes debates fiercely. Because it is indeed frustrating. We have enough stress in the RL. I would like to spend that little free time with my hobby and a working simulation. but the open construction sites everywhere, the consolation about Discord that everything is on the to do list is a sad and poor customer service .

Dear S397 studio. I assume that the mantle of silence will also be considered by you in this debate. No problem on my part. I can handle it. But it is very difficult for me to leave good advertising for you at the moment. there are just too many non-working features that will only frustrate you at some point.
 
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I see that your priorities are very different from mine, I do not understand what unfinished features are for, I could not boast of having many features if they are not finished or do not work well. The SC is practically useless in ACC where no parts of the car come off, according to the developers it is not possible due to limitations of the licenses. (Although I doubt it very much). The developers also say they could greatly improve the visual damage, although for now it's not a priority. Personally I think that to reach perfection (it is impossible) ACC needs much less work in each of the areas that a simulator forms. You have to be very optimistic to think that rF2 will improve your problems with the tire, gearbox, improve the rain, improve the graphics section to 2020 standards, a revolution in sound, online rating ... At most I think that only we are going to get new unfinished DLCs.
 
If I had the assurance that rF2 will improve significantly over the next 2 years in the realism fields (in particular the physics engine and in the creation of very realistic car content based on real data etc ...) + a high quality AI with no bugs in the single player experience, I "sign" again for 5 years.

But actually we do not have all the same priorities, nevertheless the POLL shows what interests the fans of rF2 overall the most on the forum.
 
FAlonso said:
ACC simulates the tire using information from pirelli and that of the blancpain teams. As it should be. For Pirelli the pressure is optimal at 29psi although the teams usually lower this pressure a bit. Pirelli does not recommend lowering the pressure too much as it is easy to lose pressure on the curbs. I don't understand how you can talk about the complexity of the rF2 tire and the simplicity of ACC when you have not gutted it.
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Pirelli indicates the optimum because they want to be sure that punctures are avoided under all circumstances, but not because the tyres with this pressure offer the maximum grip, like in ACC simulated. A member of a real Blanc Pain racing team explained and confirmed this in the Kunos Forum, that they try to get as far under as possible without causing punctures and that it is not real, that the maximum grip is achieved in the pressure range that Pirelli specifies as optimum. It is only logical that a higher air pressure reduces the contact area of the tyre and therefore the grip. Certainly the tire gets hotter and suffers a higher thermal degradation, but this is also visible in rFactor2 in Moteci2Pro, so that in rFactor2 you also have to take care not to overheat the tire too much. It's a pity that tire damage is not simulated, but even if you don't use a simple script, it's much more complex for a highly complex tire model.
 
It only took me a few seconds to figure it out
Just drop all the red letters and it clearly spells: Setto Cosa Ompetizone Ame Elopment.
It takes Beautiful Mind, dat's all.
 
Andregee said:
Pirelli indicates the optimum because they want to be sure that punctures are avoided under all circumstances, but not because the tyres with this pressure offer the maximum grip, like in ACC simulated. A member of a real Blanc Pain racing team explained and confirmed this in the Kunos Forum, that they try to get as far under as possible without causing punctures and that it is not real, that the maximum grip is achieved in the pressure range that Pirelli specifies as optimum. It is only logical that a higher air pressure reduces the contact area of the tyre and therefore the grip. Certainly the tire gets hotter and suffers a higher thermal degradation, but this is also visible in rFactor2 in Moteci2Pro, so that in rFactor2 you also have to take care not to overheat the tire too much. It's a pity that tire damage is not simulated, but even if you don't use a simple script, it's much more complex for a highly complex tire model.
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Do you know where to find that comment? That is not entirely true, little pressure means more heating, a very high temperature means less adherence.
In addition to a loss of speed.
 
FAlonso said:
Do you know where to find that comment? That is not entirely true, little pressure means more heating, a very high temperature means less adherence.
In addition to a loss of speed.
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There is something to be said about this topic and it has been explained quite a few times allready how it works. Normaly race teams run preassures as low as possible without underinflating the tire, where it get's unstable or damaged. A few years ago we at a F1 weekend art Spa where this was showcased pretty well, so Pirelli gave clear recommendations for the amount of laps and the allowed minimum preassure

The current sitation is that in rF2 atleast this works until the point, where the tire would collapse in reality. But as with any tire model out there, there are limitations. The most obvious limitation in rF2 that tires can't get damaged or punctured from underinflation and the lack of ambient and track temps doesn't help it either. ACC has other limitations, for example how the tires interacts with curbs. It has improved with the 5 point tire model, but it's still noticable. As said, you will face differences with pros and cons in any sim. The fact that S397 has to deal with a multitude of compounds for very different type of cars with very different tire structures compared to ACC, where you basicly have two compunds, should give you an idea how different the tasks are to improve some of our desired features. I can't even imagine wich amount of testing will be required once ambient and track temps get enabled. Now add to that different water levels and we aren't at 10 different scenarios, but thousends of different testing scenarios. Just to put this whole topic into perspective. ;)
 
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