Are sims too "realistic" to produce life-like driving?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by PearceYaussy, Oct 28, 2015.

  1. Nazirull Safry Paijo

    Nazirull Safry Paijo Registered

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    sim is sim

    real is real
     
  2. Racefreak1976

    Racefreak1976 Registered

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    rFactor2 is the realest!! :cool: ;)


    ...and Pearce stop bitching just because you can't drive for ****! :D Muhahaaa


    Thread closed. lol ...or not. Whatever!
     
  3. LeStrat

    LeStrat Registered

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    I must not agree with the first post.

    From my point of view, what makes rF2 so great is the feel. And feel is what makes driving easy. As an example, Brabham is an easy car to drive just because of all the information it transmits through the wheel.

    The main problem with simulators, then, is the hardware we use and it's configuration (and of course the lack of speed sensation, fear, G-forces in the body...). I neeeded to spend a lot of time configuring my wheel to get a proper force feedback, but it makes a huge difference. Also having a good brake pedal is essential for a proper driving. G25/G27 brake pedal makes it really difficult to do things right.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2015
  4. Racefreak1976

    Racefreak1976 Registered

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    Exactly! Hardware is just as important as the software. A G25 with Fanatec V2 pedals is sufficient enough imo. Can't really say anything about the 'expensive wheels' though.
     
  5. msportdan

    msportdan Banned

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    RF2 is realistic for a game, but its nowhere in comparison to real life.

    If you think it is.. clearly nieve
     
  6. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    ^Is that a joke? I can't tell...
     
  7. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    No, there's no such thing as too realistic. If 100% realism is your goal then how can you make something too realistic? How could you make something more realistic than our reality? If you could then our reality isn't the basis of which you're defining perfect realism. So no, you can't have too realistic.

    With regards to sims, yes, none are perfect and all drive completely different from one another. They all have vehicle behaviour strengths and weaknesses relative to eachother.
     
  8. dylbie

    dylbie Registered

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    I agree with Spin. The OP has presented a question which doesn't really make sense. Maybe he meant: 'Are sims now so realistic, that they are becoming increasingly difficult to drive with your toy wheel bolted to your computer desk in your living room?'

    And a challenge for you guys who think rF2 is too difficult or like "driving on ice": next time it rains, take your car out onto a quiet or private road, turn your traction control and ESP off, and then try and drive at the limit. You'll quickly find that when driving at the limit the car does start to behave like you're on ice as, the clue is in the name, you are at the limit of tyre grip. If you have a rear wheel drive car, even better. You'll learn a lot more. In the dry, especially with modern grippy tyres, the limit of grip is beyond what most people can drive at.

    There's a brilliant article in last months EVO magazine about driving in the wet. It's probably the easiest time to test your skill at the limit, and the most fun. I actually look forward to the stretch of country roads now on my way to work where I can turn TC in my old 5 Series off and have fun - I'll probably end up backwards through a hedge soon but it's good fun!
     
  9. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Reading through this nonsensical thread, I thought about this: When I compare my laptimes to those of my "opponents" in a champ that is about to start, I often see that I get the highest reading at the speed trap, but my opponent, that apparently drive slower, still lap few seconds faster than me. If I watch them lapping, their car look on rails, but it's the same car with the same setup. This has more to do with how you drive in the sim than any correlation with real life. The car is too sensitive, spin like mad, you have to make constant correction? Is you, not the sim. Other than this, as people pointed out, in a sim I can lap like there is no tomorrow, I can push the limit high as I can, mark the track record or die trying is not an option in the real world, but even if some crazy would try it, he would face all the same problems we face in the sim, hell, when you are so beyond the limit, you could spin out of the track over a fallen leaf. We push the simulation beyond his "use envelope" we pretend the simulation is accurate in this higher than normal condition, and we pretend it's all clear and predictable. Again the error is on our part, a simulation is about recreating a condition, usually this condition is the "normal" operative condition. for example, pretending that a cessna simulator behave as we expect at double its ceiling altitude and speed, is an error on out part, not in the simulator part. With a car the situation is less marked, but more you go beyond that line, more you digress from accuracy and predictability, but the real question is : it is meaningful to go there? To me no, and my laptimes agree with me.
     
  10. Nazirull Safry Paijo

    Nazirull Safry Paijo Registered

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    Agreed. Too many ppl want the car to feel like what they want to.

    Instead of being in the car and learn its characteristics.

    U dont jump into an NSX and say I cant feel the tires....i want to feel the tires more. Now THAT is what TOO REALISTIC is xD
     
  11. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    You would kinda hope so, but no.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    I haven't read the whole thread so I may be repeating what others have said. 1st, IRL you have physical forces on your body which makes it WAY WAY WAY easier to drive on the limit and these forces will never be replicated in a sim... at least not in my lifetime and no.. motion sims don't do it either. 2nd, Although you may think you are driving your road car to the limit, I can assure you, you are not.

    I highly suggest you participate in a local SCCA Solo 2 event. You will very quickly realize that you are no where near the limit on public roads. Solo2 events are very cheap. $40 at the most. You will meet a lot of cool and very helpful people. You can have an experienced driver ride with you and give some tips. These guys will probably also invite you to ride along with them. You can also let one of them drive your own car while you ride along. There are two national champions that run in my local chapter so they know what they are doing. It is a great way to learn and is basically impossible to harm the car aside from a miss-shift or something like that. Track days are fun too but they are much more expensive and a lot more risky to do with your daily driver. Also on a track you typically don't push a daily driver to the limits. On an open parking lot with nothing to hit you can safely drive the car WAY beyond the limits and learn what the car is really capable and how to manage it when you go near or past the limit.

    Here is a link to your state's SCCA page:
    http://www.alscca.net/

    From there you should be able to find a local event. In my region there is an event every month. I started Solo2 in 1994 (at the age of 18) before I even had a car of my own. I was hooked and ended up getting an Integra GS-R and went to every event for several years. I still own this car today and is in a very very slow process of being made into an SCCA ITS car. My closest friends today are friends I met through racing. Most of them are road racing in SCCA IT now. Real racing is actually what lead me to sim racing actually. GPL was the first sim I found that actually reacted like a real car and everyone knows how hard it is to drive GPL.

    Edit: It looks like the only SCCA Solo 2 events in Alabama are around Birmingham, So if you don't live close to Birmingham then I guess you SOL. In Florida they have events all over the state.
     
  13. Racefreak1976

    Racefreak1976 Registered

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    What do I look (google) for if I want to find anything similar to this in Germany? Keywords? Rallycross? Can't really figure out much from their site.
     
  14. Led566

    Led566 Registered

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    "If everything seems under control you're not going fast enough"
    Mario Andretti.

    Huttu was not fast enough.

    Now THIS IS fast enough:

    He controls for oversteer in ANY single turn and sometimes he make two or three correction per turn.
    rF2 + DD wheel IS the best approximation to a situation like that.
     
  15. 88mphTim

    88mphTim I'm new here Staff Member

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    Is it harder to walk when you close your eyes? No, it's not, you just don't as easily know where you're walking.

    The added sensory input a real car gives you is, obviously, going to make it appear easier to drive - or - allow you to feel like it is.

    No driver ever ACTUALLY drives at 100%, because 100.0000000001% is them spinning out, and you'd be doing that too much. You could also argue that he may reach 99.999999999% in a sim, while he may have 'only' been at 95% (and still quick, with it) in the real car. That might also help it to seem easier as well.

    So, in essence, this discussion of a direct comparison is interesting, but ultimately not something anyone will ever agree on, nor fully understand.
     
  16. Esteve Rueda

    Esteve Rueda Registered

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    I tried to say It even with videos showing extreme "easy" slides in real cars, but no one want to discuss that point, they will ignore that, they just want to say "IT'S HARD AND UNREALISTIC!!", ignoring that in sims you are driving "blind"... and It's the key for that hard to drive feeling on sims.
     
  17. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    Autocross or autox
     
  18. FlyinFinn2

    FlyinFinn2 Registered

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    Every time i see this discussion, I remember this video from iRacing, i can consider iRacing a very good sim, but when I see this, it seems almost a really bad joke, i never seen an F1 car driving like this in real life....
     
  19. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    Having sped in a road car or having turned a few laps at a trackday, you haven't been anywhere close to the limit of the car. Real life will seem easier because of added sensory input and not least the fact that you have been nowhere near the actual limit of the car. In the sim you lack a lot of sensory input and drive much much closer to the limit, so naturally it will feel more difficult. That doesn't mean it's inaccurate or wrong though.

    This discussion is very fun to watch though, do keep it up. :D


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. Esteve Rueda

    Esteve Rueda Registered

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    Good stuff here. How many times I suffer that slides in rF2... love the braking at 4:15. This is how my rF2 qualy laps looks like with GT cars, in race I have to care about tires a little bit.

    When you are actually used to the lack of feeling in sims, and in rF2, you can safely drive in both ways, aggressive and dancing with the limit, or just fast enough but not destroying tires making It to look grippy.
     

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