Are mods becomming unrealistically fast now?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Boldaussie, Mar 29, 2016.

  1. Boldaussie

    Boldaussie Registered

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    Hi Peoples,

    I am a very average driver and am finding I am, with a little practice and setup, able to run on tracks at real world times based on the real world class times. I am usually driving gt3 with a very average wheel and computer setup..
    This is fine, but completely unrealistic. There are many drivers ( not aliens ) who are multiple seconds ( not just tenths ) a lap quicker than the real world times per track and class. For race duration and not just hotlapping.
    Is this just a symptom of the newer tyre model or almost a competition between mods/modders to be faster than another regardless of the actual model supposed to be emulating the real world cars and tracks, therefore times achievable?

    I personally, would rather be 3 seconds off real world times chasing the guys who are able to run close to real world times.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Guineapiggy

    Guineapiggy Registered

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    Which tracks? Which cars? What conditions? What wear/load/rubber/temp settings? Remember that sims allow you to sustain already unrealistically ideal conditions for one, and, for another, most mod tracks and cars aren't accurate to the degree you'd be able to back-to-back times. It's not that people are overestimating a car's capabilites, they're straight-up guessing for some factors and in others working with engine limitations.
     
  3. stonec

    stonec Member

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    It was always the case with mods, they generally opt for tires that can stand way too much load in all directions and FFB that is artificially bumped up. It was the same with rF1, most F1 mods you could drive 3-5 seconds quicker than real F1 car of same year. Most (not all!) mod-makers have no idea about physics, especially with rF2 tire model they don't even bother and just copy the ISI tire or a tire from another mod.
     
  4. Boldaussie

    Boldaussie Registered

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    I am not talking specifically, I am talking generally, overall and on average. I see no where I mentioned anything specific, nor do I see the above posts "required" info as being terribly important to the topic in "general"

    I'll try again, do others see this as a "general" trend?
     
  5. Boldaussie

    Boldaussie Registered

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    Thanks Stonec,

    I have looked into gaining some sort of understanding of how the physics in the mods work. It is a very long and involved process with VERY little up to date and new modder friendly information available. ISI? I see borrowed, tyres, suspensions, aero, inertias, all jumbled up into a mod and I can easily see why. At least the cars are graphically accurate I suppose. That doesn't mean they have to make the vehicles unrealistically fast though, does it? I do note that nearly every new mod has complaints about how long the tyres last. Since when has hotlapping an entire race been a feasible race strategy?
     
  6. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    Historics can be unrealistically fast simply because simmers can drive the wheels off them harder for longer periods then drivers could in the 1960's ;)

    Reliability being the keyword.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2016
  7. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    Many modders dont bother researching cars they are making, they just make/rip the 3d model and make it go around one track at the same lap time as in real life with their own drivers skill. That almost always results in much faster cars than in real life with terrible phyiscs. I have only very few third party mods in my rF2, including tracks.
     
  8. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I think most modder want a specific car to run a league or a championship, they probably are more focused in making the experience enjoiable by a large base, so they can have a good starting field. And while most people can run there mods just fine, there will always be pilots that can squeeze 100% performance 100% of the time, lapping like there is no tomorrow... and there won't be a tomorrow if a pilot would do the same in real life, but this can be achieved with almost any car. It's the opportunity to crash and just press esc that allow people to push 100% or more.
     
  9. wgeuze

    wgeuze Registered

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    And that is how people who choose rF2 for a reason, realism, great physics, dumb things down to a degree where you have to ask, why bother going for rF2 when you dumb it down every chance you get? But no use calling them out on it, because you are going to get keelhauled, why do you even have the nerve to bring it up they ask...
     
  10. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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  11. Boldaussie

    Boldaussie Registered

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    That is the reason I chose rfactor over the others, for the "realism" within the limitations of affordable hardware. In my case I don't want it dumbed down. I get enormous satisfaction working on a setup that works, to the point of when the modder has restricted a range I go to devmode to play with it beyond that range to see what it does. Having done that, you are right, there are some horrible physics, suspension and aero mismatches on some vehicles.

    I agree that a mod needs to be fun to drive straight out of the box, most mods achieve this to some degree. I personally think though,, it belittles the real race cars and racing drivers that Joe Average (even me) can be faster in a given car at a given track in a sim that as the name implies, is supposed to simulate the real world it represents. Fortunately I can slow down or speed up the AI to my pace and have a good time a couple of seconds slower than is actually real world possible.
     
  12. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    while this is right there is no reason to make the cars artificially hard either ;) and the part you quoted "the opportunity to crash and just press esc that allow people to push 100% or more." is still present in rF2 no matter how hard the car is AFAIK xD

    Some popular devs aren't making the car behave like real life despite having the real data why would a modding group be able to do it? And there are many reasons, especially tracks.
    And also sometimes as Comate said you just have a physics for a league that people enjoy more (not necessarly means dumbing things down duh). See EEC GT3 for SCE, the original plan many months ago was to make a physics for our online leagues and another one for public use that would use more of the real data our physics guy had. But at some point it was taking too much time from his life so why bother if you pretty much only race online, those people that would use the public physics wouldn't come to race with us and most wouldn't even say a "thank you" so why waste time. Online and offline mod did end up using same physics made for the online league and man... we have fun racing with it, a lot of fun, that's all what matters :D that said his new physics was remembering rF2 URD cars a lot, would be pretty fun in AMS, too bad he stoped modding
     
  13. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    To answer your question straight up: No, I donĀ“t see that this is common. At least not for original ISI-cars, although you have always take into account that there is a possibility that they are not 100% calibrated (especially the older ones?).
    Like already said here, 3rd-party mods are another story.
    Modders seem to struggle with producing realistic tyres. (or they want to safe time)
     
  14. Pilot37

    Pilot37 Registered

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    I wouldn't worry about belittling the real world. Racing real cars is much more challenging and engaging in every way and on top of that, getting practice and half decent set ups costs a whole lot of track time = load of money (usually stuck in a pit garage in the pouring rain fixing something while your track time slips away). No sim can deal with that :) One reason online racing doesn't appeal is that I just don't see the fun in never ending practice and tuning to perfection in a no cost, no fear environment.
     
  15. David Turnbull

    David Turnbull Registered

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    i think its purely because theres no fear of death, real world drivers need to take extra care, they cant just press escape and go again.
     
  16. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    It's a combination of several factors. Yes, modders will err on the optimistic side of a car's capabilities, however:

    • Tracks - Track physics can't be 100% replicated. Cars drip stuff, oil dry gets thrown down, dirt/sand/gravel get kicked onto the racing stuff, etc., and that is never taken into account in the gaming world.
    • Crashing - There's no penalty for crashing, no injuries to recover from and no repair time keeping you from making the next race (or even the rest of practice/qualifying). We don't even have to pay bills or suffer loss of income. Thus we're rewarded for overdriving by discovering limits that aren't explored in real life. Can't count the number of times I've done a Bandini at Monte Carlo, complete with flames!
    • Conditions - Online racers typically have only sunny weather and no/low damage and a well-rubbered track, even when the real-life track is temporary and so long it would never be well-rubbered until the end of a race.
    • Reliability - There are a zillion things that go wrong in real life, but in-game we only have engine damage and tire wear and brake overheating. There are no random punctures, no litter being caught in the radiator, and the pit crew always gets the lugnuts tight. Look at pro racing results from the '60s and 20%-50% of the field retire due to mechanical problems.
    • Testing - Proper setups happen so much faster in cyberspace. It's just a mouseclick to change gear ratios rather than it being garage work between practice and qualifying. There's no budget limiting how many go-faster parts we buy.

    Most of these items are either "not fun" or "unfair" when it comes to a game and that is why they're left out.

    On the other hand, egos being what they are, drivers as a whole are often uncritical of mods having optimistic models and overestimate their own driving skills in relation to real-world professional race drivers.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2016
  17. wgeuze

    wgeuze Registered

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    I really, sincerely hope, never to read this again when we're talking about a serious simulation.
     
  18. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    LOL, okay, so the next time you crash in practice, skip the race because you broke your car and don't bother touching the sim for a month because you're recovering from a broken leg, eh?
     
  19. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    lol +1 :D
     
  20. wgeuze

    wgeuze Registered

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    So, straight to ridicule then? Nice.

    Apart from that, most of your list already applies, and hope to be doing more so sooner than later. In terms of realism and physics, that is what makes rF2 stand out from the crowd, by about a mile mind you. When ISI starts to cater to the gamers, that is gone. I've seen people being punished for going too far with their setups, brakes failed, engines overheated, I applaud that. Realroad, fantastic. Destroying your tires when you treat them badly, frustratingly effective. Some people look for something in rF2 which it isn't (pick and play a silly game), and I hope never going to be, and I really, really hope that person, isn't myself..

    Sadly, it's something of this day and age. Some people I know immediately switch to TV Cam when a track has 2 blind turns or a bit of elevation. Or what about tuning off FFB to avoid feeling a flatspot, what the...It's a damn shame... The moment when it isn't as 'easy' as people want, they adjust everything for that instant gratification... I wish it wasn't even an option... But hey, another impopulair opinion it seems.

    But it is easier to redicule, than to contemplate what I mean obviously :)

    ps
    I made comments on an RFT mod being too planted/grippy, was almost dead the next day...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2016

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