Apex Modding GT3 - 2012 (v1.09 )

Spinelli said:
(...) then I guess I am more perceptive than him/her. (...)

Obviously people are in denial and want to come to try to think of anything they can to dismiss what i'm saying due to holding on firmly to what they believe and/or their belief system. It's called cognitive disonance. I advise some people to look up that term.
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The problem is, you're guilty of pretty much the same thing you accuse others of being guilty of, however without a single shred of evidence to back up your claims about this "flawed" physics engine.

I guess the physics engineers and other professionals who hail the ISI engine (and use it professionally) also suffer from cognitive dissonance?
They're just not as perceptive as you, that's why they missed the "fact" that the ISI physics engine is actually "a far cry from reality"?
Get over yourself, please.

You're obviously convinced that you've figured something out, something so subtle and complex that most people are too dense to even sense it.
No. Just no, that's simply very very arrogant. Especially when you don't have any evidence backing up your claims.
Plenty of evidence to back up the contrary though, but you conveniently seem to ignore that most of the time.

It is arrogant of you to say that people are in denial.
People are simply dismissing your theories because they don't hold water, at all.
 
Did a quick test yesterday with some cars. Here are some findings:

1. The 799 looks to high compared to the other cars.
2. The FOV seems quite high? Compared to other mods these cars feel so fast. Usually this happens when you play with a high FOV.... lowering it didn't make a big difference... that is strange dunno the reason..
3. The rims could use a blur-instance when rotating fast. Right now it does look a bit strange.
4. Optimized heat haze on all cars would be good. I like the effect on the SLS but it is a bit overdone I guess.
5. Physics seem to be ok. Sure there could be some optimizations I assume. (has been talked about a lot in the last days.)
6. The sound quality between the cars is quite different. Would be great if this gets a bit of attention.

All in all it is a great looking mod. Optimizing some details and it is perfect.

Well done so far!
 
Ernie said:
Could someone give me an advise how to drive these cars fast, but without ruining the front tyres? I had a fun event yesterday at Mosport, and the front tyre wear on every car i tried was much higher than at the rear axle.

For a 30min race i was driving the Z06 (using the default setup with slightly stiffer rear ARB and ABS+TCS on low). I have to admit that during the test my driving style wasn't really careful on the tyres. But even with a lot of oversteer and drifting around corners the rear tyres were fine after 30min, but the front tyres were nearly dead.
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Excessive front tyre wear and temps is usually a sign that the set its too understeery. The rears have all the grip hence stay cool and relatively unworn.
You have various options to move more grip to the front and it depends a bit on where in the turn and how much oversteer you can deal with as a driver.
Chassis
Lower front ARB.
Lower front slow bump dampers
Increase rear slow bump dampers, soften rear slow rebound dampers
Soften front springs (too much and the front end will respond too slowly), a soft spring will give nice mid corner grip but too soft and its abattle to get it turned in and leads to exit oversteer once the fronts hook up.
Stiffen rear springs
AeroIf its understeering at all in fast corners lower the rear wing.
Diff In the Apex mods you only have preload. Reduce it.
Brake balance Move it away from the end thats wearing too fast.
Assists TCS hurts front tyres and saves rear tyres. The rears when they spin a little bit help the car turn. With TCS they cant. It creates a little push understeer.

The better you get one end gripping the less it will slide overheat and wear. Where temps go wear will follow so the in car status HUD (the one with tyre temps), will tell you very soon if you have managed to even out the temps a bit, so will runnniig tyre wear X more.
You will arrive at a point where you find the car oversteering a bit. Try to manage on warm tyres. If its too much back something off.
 
Great work guys. Tried all of your cars with the "default" setups, well done on your BOP, in order of fastest to slowest for "me" z06 by a good margin, 854 second ( Slower down change is easy cure for turn in o/steer), then take your pick, camaro, mp4, 799, z4, and a little way back the slsamg. With better drivers than me (not difficult) I'm sure the order would change. All improved very nicely with some setup changes that suited me better.

Regarding Spinelli's remarks re the physics. Try large differences with asymmetrical setups and the results should surprise you, they surprised the hell out of me. Completely different to the way they should behave IMO. My field is suspension and steering geometry. Granted not in the racing industry. The ONLY vehicle that I have driven in rfactor2 that remotely reflects how I know vehicles should react to non symmetrical setups, is the Palatov. I have no doubt in the non consumer market the physics behave as they should and we of course, the general public, neither has nor has access to the computing power to run it. Its a commercial product for the masses, something has to give and some of the lesser important physics aspects are left out, or simply done, such as lets say, increasing caster increases the steering effort. It does other very important things also but are seemingly not incorporated.

That they are not there does NOT detract from the sim IMO, they simply made me strain my brain for the reasons my setups weren't working as I believed they should. All should keep in mind that it's never going to be perfect until home computing power catches up with the physics that ARE already available. Still, most people want pretty, if that wasn't so then we would have far more realistic physics right now in rfactor2. Pretty takes computing power. Like Spinelli I am here for the physics. Pretty comes a distant second for me. Pretty sells though, eg pcars, asseto corsa and the console "racing sims" and others exist because it does. I appreciate that fact, I don't begrudge ISI for doing what they are forced to do. I'm a patient man.
 
Boldaussie said:
My field is suspension and steering geometry. Granted not in the racing industry.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. Can you calculate a steering geometry based on some coordinates? I ask because it seems the Z4 has a wrong thrust angle/steering lever. You can hear (and see) the outer tire scrub on the road at low speeds with high steering inputs and the centre force is inverted.
 
hexagramme said:
The problem is, you're guilty of pretty much the same thing you accuse others of being guilty of, however without a single shred of evidence to back up your claims about this "flawed" physics engine.

I guess the physics engineers and other professionals who hail the ISI engine (and use it professionally) also suffer from cognitive dissonance?
They're just not as perceptive as you, that's why they missed the "fact" that the ISI physics engine is actually "a far cry from reality"?
Get over yourself, please.

You're obviously convinced that you've figured something out, something so subtle and complex that most people are too dense to even sense it.
No. Just no, that's simply very very arrogant. Especially when you don't have any evidence backing up your claims.
Plenty of evidence to back up the contrary though, but you conveniently seem to ignore that most of the time.

It is arrogant of you to say that people are in denial.
People are simply dismissing your theories because they don't hold water, at all.
Click to expand...
So it's just some magical placebo effect that I, and many others, have been seeing/noticing/experiencing for 15 years that we don't get with other sims (or at-least not anywhere near as bad) let alone with real life? Please, man. I go on with paragraphs trying to explain things because I want the best, I care; I try to explain a lot, I really try. All you do, Hex, is go around the internet trying to dismiss anybody as if you have pledged your life-allegiance to a particular videogame company/engine. You do it on other sites too. I spend so much time trying to explain things which, honestly, are very noticeable even from a pure visual standpoint and all you do is come in with nothing except a bunch of "engineers and real drivers love it" crap.

If I was a real driver, I'd be mighty impressed too, for sure. That doesn't mean it's flaw-proof and golden-perfection but you don't use that sort of logic since that wouldn't adhere to your personal agenda of the ISI engine being the perfect, god-given vehicle dynamics and kinematics engine in the world.

Sorry, some people are in denial. Like you. You don't even listen to or try to hear me out. You don't try to look into things, try to understand, or anything. You put a defensive structure up, a wall, so as not to threaten your belief or what you want reality to be. You just state a bunch of stuff about "real drivers this", "real drivers that", etc. You're literally denying everything and anything I say just because drivers are impressed. Heck, who wouldn't be impressed with something as alive and raw feeling as RF2? I'm not surprised one bit many people are.

If anyone is arrogant, it's you. Especially by trying to end on a note like "People are simply dismissing your theories because they don't hold water, at all." They don't hold any water? How so? Just because I don't know how to translate a few types of physics oddities into complex numbers and formulas for you means that absolutely everything I say/see/experience/feel is just some humongous, 15-year placebo effect I, by pure coincidence, mostly only happen to experience when an ISI engined sim happens to be running on my PC? Or maybe it's not placebo but I just hate ISI and rFactor even though 99% of all my forum posts are right here on this website proving I don't care nearly as much for other sims as I do for ISI/RF2? Please!

P.S. Every physics engine is flawed relative to real-life physics.



Anyways, the point of my original post in here was to help take some of the blame away from AM since many people seemed to be ganging-up on them and I don't think they deserved as many complaints and as much heat as they got. The point wasn't to go on a long discussion/argument about the game's core physics/vehicle behavior (but I had to mention some of those issues in order to explain my point about things not fully being the responsibility/fault of AM like some people were making it out to be).
 
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davidporeilly said:
Excessive front tyre wear and temps is usually a sign that the set its too understeery. The rears have all the grip hence stay cool and relatively unworn.
You have various options to move more grip to the front and it depends a bit on where in the turn and how much oversteer you can deal with as a driver.
Chassis
Lower front ARB.p9
Lower front slow bump dampers
Increase rear slow bump dampers, soften rear slow rebound dampers
Soften front springs (too much and the front end will respond too slowly), a soft spring will give nice mid corner grip but too soft and its abattle to get it turned in and leads to exit oversteer once the fronts hook up.
Stiffen rear springs
AeroIf its understeering at all in fast corners lower the rear wing.
Diff In the Apex mods you only have preload. Reduce it.
Brake balance Move it away from the end thats wearing too fast.
Assists TCS hurts front tyres and saves rear tyres. The rears when they spin a little bit help the car turn. With TCS they cant. It creates a little push understeer.

The better you get one end gripping the less it will slide overheat and wear. Where temps go wear will follow so the in car status HUD (the one with tyre temps), will tell you very soon if you have managed to even out the temps a bit, so will runnniig tyre wear X more.
You will arrive at a point where you find the car oversteering a bit. Try to manage on warm tyres. If its too much back something off.
Click to expand...
Perfect post. Thanks David.
 
Spinelli said:
It's completely different from real-life as-well as most sims and has been since at-least F1 2002. If one can't see the long-standing, 15-ish year weirdness in some aspects of vehicle behaviour in the ISI engine then I guess I am more perceptive than him/her. Not that I'm the only one, I've talked to many who have agreed with me online in rooms, my friend in real-life, and I used to see lots of stuff about it back in the mid 2000s during the RaceSimCentral days.

Obviously people are in denial and want to come to try to think of anything they can to dismiss what i'm saying due to holding on firmly to what they believe and/or their belief system. It's called cognitive disonance. I advise some people to look up that term.
Click to expand...

Mate, I think the problem is that many of us have never driven race cars so the behaviour of the cars seems right to us. I find low speed spinning around uselessly on grass particularly frustrating - and that doesn't seem real to me.

I can only suggest you form up all your thoughts and observations into one big document and give that to ISI directly as feedback. Giving that feeback to a community who is mostly (no offence to anyone intended) less informed, isn't going to change anything.

In particular, please ask to interact directly with the people responsible for the physics engine
 
Brack Jabham said:
Mate, I think the problem is that many of us have never driven race cars so the behaviour of the cars seems right to us. I find low speed spinning around uselessly on grass particularly frustrating - and that doesn't seem real to me.

I can only suggest you form up all your thoughts and observations into one big document and give that to ISI directly as feedback. Giving that feeback to a community who is mostly (no offence to anyone intended) less informed, isn't going to change anything.

In particular, please ask to interact directly with the people responsible for the physics engine
Click to expand...
Thanks for at-least listening. If you'd like to PM me or start this discussion on another website (maybe RaceDepartment?) then let me know. I don't want to keep hijacking this thread as that was not the intention of my original post about the issues (it was to explain that I don't think Apex Modding fully deserved all the complaints they were getting). Thanks for that message though.
 
Tosch said:
That's interesting. Can you calculate a steering geometry based on some coordinates? I ask because it seems the Z4 has a wrong thrust angle/steering lever. You can hear (and see) the outer tire scrub on the road at low speeds with high steering inputs and the centre force is inverted.
Click to expand...

I don't have the maths ability to do that unfortunately, Its the 21st century, brain strain at my age?...LOL but just from what you describe its most likely an ackerman angle issue. I am following Leonardo's modding tool development as I am keen to delve into this area in sim suspension when time permits at some point.
 
Boldaussie said:
I don't have the maths ability to do that unfortunately, Its the 21st century, brain strain at my age?...LOL but just from what you describe its most likely an ackerman angle issue. I am following Leonardo's modding tool development as I am keen to delve into this area in sim suspension when time permits at some point.
Click to expand...

That's cool. Just in case you want to prepare for Leonardo's release and get an idea how it works, there is a suspension editor for rFactor1 which works with rF2 too (at least you can open and visualize the most suspension files).

Here is the download link.
https://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=Suspension%20Editor

Btw, the maths is here. The site is in German, but I think mathematics is an international language. ;)
http://www.urlaub-und-hobby.de/metallbaukasten/sonst/lenkung1dt.html
 
@Tosch
Have you tried ISI's suspension spread sheet? It works wonders on open wheelers as you can match up suspension arms to blueprints. Probably won't work as well on GTs as the fenders cover all the good stuff but if you input your suspension pick-up points it does calculate all your geometries.
TK

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G800A using Tapatalk
 
Spinelli said:
So it's just some magical placebo effect that I, and many others, have been seeing/noticing/experiencing for 15 years ...
Click to expand...

I'll try to be more explicit:

Hypothesis:
You affirm that ISI engine is flawed because in any ISI engine sim you need very low steering angle in turn negotiation, expecially with sharp turns, compared to what is needed in the real world.

Logic demonstration of hypothesis fallacy:
I posted a study (by a real race engineer) where is clearly shown a NEAR PERFECT coincidence between real life telemetry steering angle of an F3 car and the correspondent F3 rF1 mod steering angle.
Recorderd at Monza, where are some very sharp turns (turn 1 for example).

This doesn't mean ISI motor ISN'T flawed at all, but, for sure, means it is NOT flawed in the way you affirm.

Do you agree with that?

Yes? OK, fantastic, we can move on.

No? Please provide data to counter my argument. Any telemetry comparison would be good enough, so you don't need formulas etc.


P.S. Please note that I never said your sensations/experiences are wrong: what I affirmed wrong is only your deduction about ISI motor.

P.S.2 you also affirm that what you feel with ISI motor is less present/tangible with all others sims, funnily enough I've only found ISI motors/real life comparisons...if someone has this type of study for other sim (iRacing maybe?) I will be very interested to read it.
 
birds are singing what spinelli wrote 10000000000 times...bla,bla,15 years,bla,bla,f1 2002,bla,bla...
this guy come online to chat and all he does is make few laps then chat again about physic flaws in rf2..or he adjusting his settings(wheel,graphics...)

i think he never made his own setup for a car,he is messing with player json and controller ini and who knows what else..he judge sims(games) from replays(but who knows who is driving on that replay,and what settings he using..)that was the reason i dont take this guy for serious any more.he just want to be something here.he is not fastest,do not know anything about modding.....he only know how to adjust gpu settings :)
and pick what is intersting for him and try to be smart,and if someone dont agree with him he is pointing that he is driving 15 years sim and he was working on race track.

and i think if someone prove he is wrong,he would not care or move on something else(or forget very quickly).we know sims are not perfect,many,many factors are involved,people here pointed that to you many times.
interesting thing is you still driving rf2 but other games dont have this kind of issue.i heard that after new year ISI gonna snap with fingers and rf2 will be perfect sim..

chill man,i dont need your opinion here or online when racing.if you want to race you know where to find people to race or me.and if someone give you room to chat that dosnt mean i want 1 hour chating when racing.
go play with gpu hehe nobody need you.you ruin every thread here(open your own),thx god im not on other sites reg to read your tihs
bb see you on track ;)
 
kiko0602 said:
birds are singing what spinelli wrote 10000000000 times...bla,bla,15 years,bla,bla,f1 2002,bla,bla...
this guy come online to chat and all he does is make few laps then chat again about physic flaws in rf2..or he adjusting his settings(wheel,graphics...)

i think he never made his own setup for a car,he is messing with player json and controller ini and who knows what else..he judge sims(games) from replays(but who knows who is driving on that replay,and what settings he using..)that was the reason i dont take this guy for serious any more.he just want to be something here.he is not fastest,do not know anything about modding.....he only know how to adjust gpu settings :)
and pick what is intersting for him and try to be smart,and if someone dont agree with him he is pointing that he is driving 15 years sim and he was working on race track.

and i think if someone prove he is wrong,he would not care or move on something else(or forget very quickly).we know sims are not perfect,many,many factors are involved,people here pointed that to you many times.
interesting thing is you still driving rf2 but other games dont have this kind of issue.i heard that after new year ISI gonna snap with fingers and rf2 will be perfect sim..

chill man,i dont need your opinion here or online when racing.if you want to race you know where to find people to race or me.and if someone give you room to chat that dosnt mean i want 1 hour chating when racing.
go play with gpu hehe nobody need you.you ruin every thread here(open your own),thx god im not on other sites reg to read your tihs
bb see you on track ;)
Click to expand...
One of the most preposterous posts I've read. Talk about letting go. I don't even know where to begin. You literally posted with only the intent of trying to bash me not to mention make up lies about me. You're also trying to ridicule me regarding how much I try to help others with their games, software, and hardware. Disgusting, man.

Anyways, to Led566, you can PM me if you'd like because I definitely have answers and counterpoints to every single thing you mentioned above but let's stop in this thread.
 
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