Am I the only one thinking payware could be rFactor2's death knell?

All we have to do is look at the flight sim community. There are entire companies that exist only to create amazing payware. In the future that might also be the same for the sim racing community, and I think it will be fantastic.
 
o0thx11380o said:
All we have to do is look at the flight sim community. There are entire companies that exist only to create amazing payware. In the future that might also be the same for the sim racing community, and I think it will be fantastic.
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I found a post about it, improving on my comment on how you cannot compare payware from rFactor to flight simulators.

"Payware works in other types of sims (such as flight simulator) because it adds something. Most payware aircraft for example have FAR more detailed startup procedures, more advanced, refined and realistic avionics, vastly improved flight dynamics, things that can't even be part of the sim itself because it is an extension (think about RFE weather plugin type thing) sounds, graphics - it's a massive improvement, it is a world apart."
 
The PMDG planes are amazing!
Another difference to keep in mind is that an aircraft, how weird it might sound, is probably easier to simulate than a car since you're dealing with alot less variables.
We are dealing with rubber that behaves different depening on track, rubbering, temperature, humidity, dirt, pressure, ... which makes it alot more complicated to make a very accurate representation unless you have a ton of source material of which you can off.
 
Guimengo said:
I found a post about it, improving on my comment on how you cannot compare payware from rFactor to flight simulators.

"Payware works in other types of sims (such as flight simulator) because it adds something. Most payware aircraft for example have FAR more detailed startup procedures, more advanced, refined and realistic avionics, vastly improved flight dynamics, things that can't even be part of the sim itself because it is an extension (think about RFE weather plugin type thing) sounds, graphics - it's a massive improvement, it is a world apart."
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Ive made quick look into one of those sites offering this and i have to say that our prices for what we offer in quality we offer are actually low. Just becase you add some small switches and clickable buttons in a cockpit its not really right away higher valued of that. Its what game offers and can be done for those doing this in quickly plus those are mostly 2d cockpits that have this.

This "ONE" plane price http://www.flightsimstore.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=173&products_id=1365 probably needed as much work as our T5 "ONE" car and for price of $44 you would get plenty of cars from us.

As somebody knowing both racing and flight sim for more than a decade i can just say that many of you just dont value mods and the hard work becase clearly you were to spoiled with FREE stuff over all those years. I wish this would happen years ago to sim racing allready. Atleast there would be no pointing fingers, excuses, empty promisses and we would have more quality and valuable cars/tracks, less ripped stuff as people would value those for sure more once they would have to pay for them.
 
Payware fractures the community. No arguing that. But it won't necessarily ruin it, if enough free/ISI content is available.
 
I think that some kind of GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE for the modding community would be the right step forward.

Also the sim community could learn a lot form the Linux community. Currently some people are still living under some 16th century, cowboy, respect what ever rules. If the modding platform publishers would behave like that we would have only proprietary software. Not a single modding platform.
I don't even want to know what they think about such kind of discussions which are currently floating over the net.

But yeah, that's only my opinion.
 
one of the problems here is that do not ask for a contribution moders for their work, a contribution to its work via a free donation by the end user.
If not, we should demand that the moders are their companies and companies operating as truth. with guarantees of purchase, customer care ,warranty and customer care services, besides a satisfaction and return service both the product and the money, and of course, their work must be licensed by the owner of the model and have a real system of vehicle data and a real answer for this on the track. unfortunately not met most of these things in the new payment mod.
 
I think we need to differentiate between first (direct) and second order (indirect) effects here.

Direct effects of paymods are pretty much positive through and through. Someone receives compensation for the immense amount of work and effort (presuming no rip-off mods become pay-mods, or if they do they can be easily distinguished from properly built pay-mods). We get modders who can afford to spend more time on their mods. Selling mods does not per se mean utmost quality, particularly at the moment where all Ales has to compete with is people's general expectation of quality for pay-mods (meet the minimum expectation, done).

The indirect effects are very different, some good some potentially very damaging.
- when/if we actually get some basic competition between pay-mods, quality might rise (if it becomes competition for quality) or time invested by the modder might sink, reducing quality (if it becomes competition for price, to undercut the opposition).
- the online racing community will fracture the more pay-mods are out there. This is also in stark contrast to flight sims, which don't have multiplayer where the presence of others is as important for constituting meaning like it is for us. I keep reading that servers are predominantly empty already and that will only get worse the more entry-restricted content there is. Contained league racing is a way to combat this and to be frank we already lost most of the instant-pick-up racing with strangers in the last few years.
- given that pay-mods allow people to spend more of their time on modding means that they can produce better mods in shorter time than hobbyist modders can, further frustrating them. We already suffer big problems finding new blood and this will only make it worse. Pay-mods aren't the only nor the biggest cause here, but they will probably exacerbate the problem even further.
- if pay-mods increase expectation of quality, free mods might not be able to compete within reasonable timeframes, driving existing modders out of the scene. Might be much more of an issue if the community's general attitude does not take into account the difference between for-pay modders who work several hours each day and hobbyist modders only being able to work an hour or two a day on a project.
I do not believe it is a given that free mods will always be around. We need to make sure we keep them around if we want to have them. We can do something to combat this downside by, if nothing else, being aware of how much more days hobbyists need to sacrifice just to come close to the same end result and reflecting that in the feedback we give to hobbyist modders.

I'm sure there's other effects we don't even see yet. Unforeseen consequences are hard, mostly because they're unforeseen. ;)
We shouldn't just accept what happens with pay-mods but turn it into an actual process where we as a community handle them and the effects they have.
 
ethone said:
The indirect effects are very different, some good some potentially very damaging.
- when/if we actually get some basic competition between pay-mods, quality might rise (if it becomes competition for quality) or time invested by the modder might sink, reducing quality (if it becomes competition for price, to undercut the opposition).
- the online racing community will fracture the more pay-mods are out there. This is also in stark contrast to flight sims, which don't have multiplayer where the presence of others is as important for constituting meaning like it is for us. I keep reading that servers are predominantly empty already and that will only get worse the more entry-restricted content there is. Contained league racing is a way to combat this and to be frank we already lost most of the instant-pick-up racing with strangers in the last few years.
- given that pay-mods allow people to spend more of their time on modding means that they can produce better mods in shorter time than hobbyist modders can, further frustrating them. We already suffer big problems finding new blood and this will only make it worse. Pay-mods aren't the only nor the biggest cause here, but they will probably exacerbate the problem even further.
- if pay-mods increase expectation of quality, free mods might not be able to compete within reasonable timeframes, driving existing modders out of the scene. Might be much more of an issue if the community's general attitude does not take into account the difference between for-pay modders who work several hours each day and hobbyist modders only being able to work an hour or two a day on a project.
I do not believe it is a given that free mods will always be around. We need to make sure we keep them around if we want to have them. We can do something to combat this downside by, if nothing else, being aware of how much more days hobbyists need to sacrifice just to come close to the same end result and reflecting that in the feedback we give to hobbyist modders.

I'm sure there's other effects we don't even see yet. Unforeseen consequences are hard, mostly because they're unforeseen. ;)
We shouldn't just accept what happens with pay-mods but turn it into an actual process where we as a community handle them and the effects they have.
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- Agree.

- Yes it will fracture the community but not in any other way as every mod which gets released does.
Exmple, we have a sim with only one car. The devs decide to release a second car and the community is divided. It happens with every mod released, that'S what people are not taking in to account when saying pay mods are fracturing the community.

- I don'T see why a hobby modder should get frustrated when doing his hobby. After all he is doing it because he is enjoying it as far as I know. It's up to him how many time he spends with a mod and what quallity he wants to achieve. I don't see why I wouldn't use your tracks or feels3 and so on tracks only because some pay mod tracks get released. If anything, the hobby modders are over the control what quality a pay mod has to deliver because they have at least to match the hobbiest quallity.

- That will never happen as long there are people which just enjoy it as a hobby and also realize it is a hobby for them.
We have that everywhere. Sport is a good example.


What I want also to mention that I personally had to rethink and the paymod thing actually woke me up a bit.
As I bought the mod I also was thinking about the content I have already, coming to the conclusion that I was an selfish a**hole. So I looked up who created the content I have and made some donations for the first time.
Before that I honestly have never thought about it. I hope that also happens to others and they realize easier/faster what value the free mods really have. The value of free mods instantly raised for me and my view on the moders changed dramatically.
 
Nice post Ethone.

Personally I don't mind either way, if there is a userbase then why not? go's for both free and paid.

But unforeseen consequences are indeed unforeseen. for example I wonder how it would effect leagues. I for one would be hesitant to start using paid content in our league as I don't want to alienate members whom cant or wont pay for it. And it wont be easy to tell them to find another league either, some members are essential or have been with us for years, there is some obligation back and forth.

Not sure if it was in this thread but I mentioned league-specific deals before, where a league buys content for their members (as leagues run on donations most of the times) and that could actually be a good thing.

Its going to be a daunting task for league nonetheless I imagine, even when using paid content, then how restrictive does a league get? A league cannot change paid content every other month because 'awesome' and expect all members to follow. So less flexibility. Not sure if that's going to work much. (its hard enough to pick the free content that the majority likes)
Especially because the flexibility is such an integral part of rfactor.
So how would it effect peeps? having to leave their beloved community? jumping from league to league trying to find a community that is using the content they own?

I don't think we should just assume payware is going to hurt freeware though, it could well be that freeware becomes even more popular by demand. because of payware.
 
Denstjiro said:
I don't think we should just assume payware is going to hurt freeware though, it could well be that freeware becomes even more popular by demand. because of payware.
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I also see that payware won't be taking freeware down, the issues for that (if it happens) are somewhere else. And ethone pretty much touched those issues in his post, modding has become FAR more complex and harder same time as sim technology has evolved. Currently this is mostly about rF2, as there is no competition that has moddable foundation. But when AC comes out it will be real test between these two titles about which one appeals more to modders. One area is userbase, where I think AC will be winner. They have nice polished product, and good solid distribution plan (Steam). They will also release modding tools and documentation, which in every degree seems to be actually functional. When rF1 was around, there wasn't such competition apart from gMotor derivative titles like SimBin's. But everybody knows how easy it was to port between these titles, and it didn't really make difference for which you were modding for. It all played to ISI's pockets then.

If the cost and reward is not balanced when it comes to modding, it will not survive for long. Time shows if rF2 faces competition or not. I am little bit afraid as there is too much going on currently, payware-freeware divide and then completely new player in moddable racing sim scene (AC). I believe physics modders won't get as much from AC, than from rF2. But graphics artists might look into AC as it has quite solid graphics engine which make such modding rewarding. My bet is personally in AC as it could be the next platform that makes modding fun again.
 
People will take the most easy way to go. I see more a issue for the rf2 future by AC. When the guys get everything together and the engine is good, things will change. Imagine the engine and features are comperable and the feeling is good, it just needs a more userfrendly sys and things roll on.
Very simple example. As said before i have no clue about rf2 physic engine and not really the ambitions to learn without a goal and rewards. As a pro in real life vehicle technics i have no real intrest to eliminate time for nothing. It is to much work for nothing and to less features to take more serious. That means i was one of the first changing plattform if i was intrested in when there is another one with easyer access to get into.
 
Too much argument over a simple thing, You Choose, choice, what do you wish to do. All this is like telling me to wear black shoes on Mondays and red shoes the rest of the week. "Choice" is not for sale, but it can be stolen and taken away from you.

You want to pay, do it. You want free, go ahead.
 
jimcarrel said:
Too much argument over a simple thing, You Choose, choice, what do you wish to do. All this is like telling me to wear black shoes on Mondays and red shoes the rest of the week. "Choice" is not for sale, but it can be stolen and taken away from you.

You want to pay, do it. You want free, go ahead.
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Oh! perfect words, the key word "choice".
 
ethone said:
- when/if we actually get some basic competition between pay-mods, quality might rise (if it becomes competition for quality) or time invested by the modder might sink, reducing quality (if it becomes competition for price, to undercut the opposition).
Click to expand...
Lowering price at cost of quality may cause paid mods to compete on quality/price field with... free mods :)
So I don't think it will go that way. Having a variety of free mods people are likely to pay only if mod stands out quality-wise.
 
If people keep on buying half-done cars and series, I wonder why modders would feel the need to put a lot of effort into their own projects. I'm sure they have pride in their work, but if people are buying half-baked unfinished stuff, why bother? I'm so willing to buy or donate for quality, but payware does not = quality.
 
realkman666 said:
If people keep on buying half-done cars and series, I wonder why modders would feel the need to put a lot of effort into their own projects. I'm sure they have pride in their work, but if people are buying half-baked unfinished stuff, why bother? I'm so willing to buy or donate for quality, but payware does not = quality.
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Well, you've got to invest in the modder to keep him/her motivated if you think that what they do i justifiable to let them know he/she is going 'right' in the direction they have chosen. I've paid for the EnduranceRacingX mod knowing that it is in a beta stage with continuous updates, just like I bought rF2 knowing it would be in a beta stage for some time. I really don't see any difference, it's just like people who bought/invested in p-cars. And speaking of that particular mod it does stand out more quality-wise than most other car mods that are available despite lacking cockpits atm. It's just more thorough then the rest.

I don't get the hysteria behind payware mods. It's been around for years in the flight-sim community, it's almost standard practice there and noone complains. I've been somewhat simultaneously involved in both communities for almost over ten years, however I'm bigger fan of cars than I am of airplanes and I've always been baffled why so much of the modding put out for sim-racing has been free. Sure it is the legal side of it, but then again I've failed to see any donation buttons from some of the bigger teams/modders that put out true quality stuff. I think it's only a matter of time when 'this' arrived and it looks like it has, I don't think it will kill the modding scene.
Passion is hard to conquer. Also, remember that GTR by SimBin basically was an improved/modified version of an ISI-engine that they charged for, where's the difference?
 
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