AI throttle/brake behaviour, not fixed yet?

Discussion in 'Technical & Support' started by Ariff, Apr 5, 2020.

  1. Ariff

    Ariff Registered

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    Highlighted the text from the original post, hope this helps in tracking down the issue. Im sure a simple revert of the change in build 1110 will be able to fix this... 1118 update had no mention whatsoever about this issue, I was very much hoping it wasnt going to get ignored.....
    Just a small nitpick of mine, this issue is more obvious in my other 2 videos on why the old ai is better though.

    EDIT : forgot to mention, this issue will appear no matter what the content is, official, dlc, or mods...
     
  2. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Think of the 'To Do' list as the 'Won't Do' list UNTIL some time in the far distant future when the UI is fully sorted and the Online Competition/TV displays are fully fleshed out. You can bring it up, repeatedly in different threads, it will still go on the 'Won't Do' list. WHEN will everyone here figure this out?
    Did anyone ask for the recent graphic improvements? I believe they have spent a lot of time on that area, and they aren't finished, they are doing things that can be built upon for future projects. I wish I could post a short vid of Animal from the Muppet Show yelling...Won't Do! Won't do! everytime any of these Solo/AI request threads gets started or revived. WON'T DO! WON'T DO!
     
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  3. Ariff

    Ariff Registered

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    lol ok
     
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  4. Sean McCormack

    Sean McCormack Registered

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    I understand that and I think Ariff understands that. The thing is, is that rfactor 2 build 1109 has the best ai in any sim IMO. that was a huge selling point for me to get rfactor 2. That's why i bought it. Since they changed that type of AI behavior why not revert it back? I don't think that type of adjustment is that difficult to make if it was adjusted in the first place. It's not like this is how the ai came with the sim.
     
  5. marvelharvey

    marvelharvey Registered

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    I understand this way of thinking for new features (like AI drafting properly, pit strategies and whatnot) but what Ariff is asking for here and I complain about in FCY topics can be solved by rolling back to a previous version of the AI code. I'm a game developer too and can do this with my own project in a matter of seconds.

    However, it could be that somewhere along the way, S397 lost access to their version history, are unable to roll back and this will take man-hours to fix. My version history only goes back to 2016, when I migrated between providers.

    Seeing fixes in the latest release though warmed my heart... there's hope yet!
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
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  6. Ariff

    Ariff Registered

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    I really do hope that this isnt the case. If it really is, then we are doomed!!!
     
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  7. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

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    Yeah, they probably ran out of floppies so someone used the one with "Build 1109" written on it, crossed it out and wrote "Latest version" on it :rolleyes:
     
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  8. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I know the behaviour you describe in this thread, but is there any chance it is not universal? Recently I've made some racing with GT3 and CS, at Bathurst and at Botnianring, and I've not noticed this. Ok, I was more busy with my driving, but maybe ABS and traction control help smoothing their inputs? I've made some racing at Adria with Kartsim, and not realized if the behaviour is there.
     
  9. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Theories about what caused this to get worse and how easily it can be fixed are going to soon take on a life of their own. Let's keep the issue visible, but let's not start making assumptions about things we aren't involved with.
     
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  10. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    And still it has to be reported again and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN. Rightfully so. It's not, that this issue wasn't known for years.

    It's an annoying issue and seeing rF2 focussing on the multiplayer (especially the fancy eSports and competition) stuff now more, than refining it's former strengths (that degress more and more IMO), is like a slap in the face for the part of players, that enjoyed offline racing in rF2.

    I can't believe, that the same guys, that take care of the UI, also take care of the AI or graphics. These are completely different fields....ohhhkay...maybe they do, this would explain some things...

    I'm sure, they already use these compact disks, also managing files by Norton Commander, there is no way, they could fit their work on these old Floppy Disks! :D
     
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  11. Pales

    Pales Registered

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    Marrs very kindly responded to my messages. An update below.

    As I explained in our last roadmap, certain priorities have shifted so this task is still not done. It's on our list, but there have been so many special projects that we simply have not gotten to it.

    palessssssssToday at 1:43 PM
    Can you at least give us, the community, an insight into what caused this behaviour, followed by why it is not easily revertible? We’re all desperately seeking an update, or at least some information to go by.
    [1:44 PM]
    After all, it impacts times, speed and it’s generally very unpleasant to hear in races (due to erratic throttling). Most importantly - I raised this issue over two years ago, so the worry is it’s simply forgotten about.

    MarrsToday at 1:46 PM
    You know it's not forgotten. The issue is time. It is not as simple as reverting that behaviour as this is most likely a side effect of other AI fixes we did.

    palessssssssToday at 1:48 PM
    But respectfully, the fixes that were applied catered to lower skill levels, which has subsequently impacted the behaviour of all skill levels. I don’t recall anyone requesting this, so what we have now is behaviour that has actually regressed, quite significantly.

    MarrsToday at 1:49 PM
    Just because you did not recall anyone requesting that does not mean nobody did.
    [1:49 PM]
    I know you are waiting for a long time for this.

    palessssssssToday at 1:49 PM
    I guess it’s just frustrating that’s all. A lot of us are running old builds, we can’t use any of the new DLC, tracks or features until it has been rectified.
    [1:50 PM]
    But thanks again.
    MarrsToday at 1:50 PM
    I can't always fix problems right away, but always feel free to have a chat with me. There is a lot going on sometimes that I cannot be explicit about which sometimes makes our choices look strange.
    palessssssssToday at 1:52 PM
    The simulator is obviously coming on by leaps and bounds, you’re doing an incredible amount of work, and it is telling. I just wish there was more transparency and clarity on particular issues, that’s all. Equally I understand that remaining silent is also the best thing to do given how busy things are.. Hopefully we will have something soon.
    [1:53 PM]
    But thank you, I appreciate your time. All the best.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  12. AlexHeuskat

    AlexHeuskat Registered

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    the Azure AIW is bad and bugged since day one.......many things need a fix
     
  13. danove_b

    danove_b Registered

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    Can't S397 just make a temporary fix by just throw in a parameter in the player file like "UseOldAIParameters", or better of just put out all the parameters? (I assume it's some PID parameters that at least using constant declarations). I'm using this method quite often in my profession when I add/change some function that is not 100% tested to a system ...
    It's understandable that going back to the old parameters, many things will be affected in cars that have been released/updated after Build 1109.
     
  14. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

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    I'm guessing that the problem is a side-effect of other changes and can't easily be fixed without throwing away the other benefits, whatever they are. If the AI code is anything like the spaghetti I saw in an AC video they may not be able to control the outcome of any change!
     
  15. MarcG

    MarcG Member

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    It's more than likely exactly that, it's not like S397 deliberately made the AI "worse" just whatever changes came in gradually made the on/off braking worse (it has always been there just not as evident as this). As above though with certain cars on certain tracks I don't see it at all, other combos and it's very visible.


    If only it were that easy! Since 1109 there has been a lot of new Car & Tracks releases, with that the AI files for those cars & AIW for Tracks, if you could quickly revert I'd bet it won't be the same and actually throw up more issues than what we currently have.

    The best thing to do is to be patient (unfortunately), the whole focus of S397s priorities shifted with the Pandemic and sudden rise of eRacing and for the Offline fans that means AI got pushed further back, I'm however fully confident they will get around to dealing with the issues with this specific one (which they are well aware of) and others, eventually RF2 will once again be King of AI :)
     
  16. Ian-C

    Ian-C Registered

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    I don't know if this is related to everyone else's issue but i was doing some tests with AI and found that they are probably too consistent. I noticed that in a short race after qualifying that they all finished in their qualifying positions. I started on pole and won the race but looking back through the logs and replays i noticed they all finished in the same position that they qualified. I did a further test with the Endurance cars (Official) and the Le Mans 24H track on a dedicated server where i let them do a full 24 hour race and again most finished in their qualifying positions bar a couple that were only out of place due to incidents while overtaking back markers. There needs to be more variety in the AI so they actually perform more natural like a random chance that their consistency setting gets over ridden so even if they are setup to be 100% consistent there is still a chance of them making a mistake, you know being more human. and likewise the other way if they are setup to be pretty average drivers then with a slight random chance they are made the best driver on the track for a period of laps/time.
     
  17. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    Especially on Le Mans, because AI is absolutely afraid of overtaking under drafting, while cornering is pretty similar, it results in the lack of position changes.
    AI can create more differences due to AI limiter setting, but even then, their lack of drafting ability and moving into overtaking position with applied brakes will kill the whole deal.
     
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  18. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Try adjusting this line in your player.json. increase the value to induce the AI into more driving errors. Do not exceed 1.0

    "AI Mistakes":0.2,
    "AI Mistakes#":"a range of (intentional) AI mistakes from 0.0 (none) to 1.0 (sometimes). Anything above 1.0 multiplies the frequency",
     
  19. Ariff

    Ariff Registered

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    This thing has been here since the rFactor 1 days. However, it wasnt in the older isimotor games such a F1 Challenge 99 02 and GTR 2. Both these games have the AI actually come out of the draft to overtake, instead of lifting off and staying behind forever but its rare to find a situation where they actually make a nice move because they are too spread out no matter what the aggression setting is set to. The AI behavior in the first lap is worse than rFactor 1 though (rFactor 1 still has horrible first lap behavior).

    Automobilista 1 seems to be the only isi based engine game that doesnt have AI stuck behind in a draft and lifting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  20. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    AMS AI also has some quirks of this behaviour, they overtake you out of the draft, but they will not follow your line pretty actively, so you can break the draft easily. But at least they overtake each other without problems, yes.

    Race Room (GT-Legends/RACE foundation of ISImotor generation) AI in comparison even drafts actively behind the player, especially in GT cars and follows you, if you change lanes, to overtake you aggressively. Also with the new routines, they have a defense behaviour, it has quite overtaken AMS and rF2 for me in the last year. (Even if still flawed)

    GTR2 also shows pretty hesistant behaviour in some situations. Its AI even had a "slow down" bug in longer races, when AI begun, to not overtake properly anymore, making endurance totally easy for you, if you were not using AI tweaks...i have thousands of hours in this game, basically encountered all its flaws (when used without mods), that makes my nostalgia for it vanish, as soon as i think of newer ISI dependent sims and its AI was pretty problematic, before mods came into play. Btw. the GTR1/2 AI also has the stutter on/off throttle behaviour.^^
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2020

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