Ai raciness

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Paul Fenwick, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. Paul Fenwick

    Paul Fenwick Registered

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    Been playing rre after the latest update and whilst nearly everything it does worse than rf2 the ai now just feels more alive and racey compared to rf2. Granted there a things wrong with it being the inability to lap slower cars and the ai being able to brake better than you but this is being worked on. I love rf2 but it felt stale after playing rre. Will the ai be improved in this respect on rf2 as rf2 drives so much better?
     
  2. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    What are your AI settings? Have you set AI limiter = 0? Have you turned up aggression? Are you matching the AI difficulty to your skills? I've found once you dial these in and the track has an acceptable AIW file (block line, wet line, and maybe some car-specific lines), then the AI are very racy when you ignore the work-in-progress that is AI oval racing.

    Just last night I was demonstrating AI on Brianza 10k for a friend. AI would react to my presence behind them, react to another AI car's presence, draft, overtake using the draft, block appropriately (move once), obey blue flags, and dive bomb when door was left open (and sometimes suffer the consequences, washing out and losing time/position when commitment was too much).
     
  3. stonec

    stonec Member

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    I'd be surpised if the RRE AI was better than rF2. RRE (Simbin) physics engine is AFAIK largely based on gMotor 2.0 (rF1), and AFAIK they haven't got a license to edit it unlike Reiza. I think it still is in large parts rF1. What they did was add a tweaked graphics engine and UI above it.

    The major issue with rF2 AI is not in road but oval racing, it needs lots of improvements to be even at level of NR2003. There were some improvements promised after the first stock car release, but yet to see any practical changes to it.
     
  4. tpw

    tpw Registered

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    AI in R3E has improved massively, and in my opinion is now in solid second place behind rF2. However good and believable the R3E AI are, the illusion pretty quickly vanishes when the game's other shortcomings come into play.

    R3E absolutely eclipses rF2 in the audiovisual and presentation department, but rF2 totally eclipses R3E as far as physics, FFB, tyre modelling, damage modelling, flags and penalties, setups, track rubbering, day/night cycles, weather etc etc etc. And rF2 also doesn't have the confusing and expensive microtransaction business model and onerous always online requirement even for SP.

    I really like both games. R3E looks sounds and feels great, and with its forgiving physics is easy and fun to drive, but it's still terribly feature incomplete. rF2 looks and sounds very very drab by comparison, but the overall driving feel is totally unbeatable and it is by far the most feature complete in terms of modelling the various systems associated with driving and racing.

    I long for my fantasy sim in which Sector 3 give the middle finger to Raceroom, defect en mass to ISI, and graft their outstanding audiovisuals onto rF2's unmatched simulation.
     
  5. Paul Fenwick

    Paul Fenwick Registered

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    Ai around 98%, limiter at 0 aggression at 70. Ai just seems slightly more rigid and stuck on rails. They don't take as many varied lines. I agree the ai in rre is not as good but what it is good at is giving that illusion of being in a race whereas I find quite often they group into lines on rf2 if you see what I mean. I think it's track specific on rf2 there are good and bad tracks. But i just feel more in a race with other humans in rre
     
  6. daveklein

    daveklein Registered

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    I'm kinda curious about a silly question. When somebody builds a track and I guess defines the racing surface, do the AI's figure out the best line, from an physics sw engine, or is a specific preferred line defined by builder and they just vary from that line?
     
  7. Paul Fenwick

    Paul Fenwick Registered

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    i'm pretty sure the track builder defines the lines. it seems like they tend to stick to them too much. just had a quick go on rre and the ai was running lots of slight variations on the racing line, they were making mistakes etc. it seemed like i said earlier more alive. but yeh rf2 drives so much better.

    had a quick go at palm springs just. 20 lap race and i think saw zero overtaking by the ai. i drove from 18th to 1st in 20 laps with the above settings ai 98, limiter 0, aggression 70. it was dull
     
  8. alpha-bravo

    alpha-bravo Registered

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  9. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    How many cars and tracks do you base this hypothesis on ?


    The Historic Ai I raced over 4 years "feel very alive and racey" to me.

    It was always that good, from build .

    No one sim is going to tick all boxes for everyone.

    Get online and race proper ......... but there is no one online...... oh, yes sorry about that chaps .............because all you people play offline won't..................if you did you wouldn't need good Ai at all would you.

    Catch22


    Merry Christmas lol ;)
     
  10. Natureboy

    Natureboy Registered

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    Great AI emulate real people, why bother fussing over settings when no matter how good they get they can only ever be ok. AI are good for rubbering in the track, not great though as their line is usually off. All trouble setting up AI is easily avoided by going online, most people who bother to do so have far more sense and skill than any AI and are a pleasure/challenge to race.

    You will not be able to limit online opponents to 98% or whatever so that you can easily win. Passing 20 cars will not involve 20 easy over takes, you will need to work for it. AI are bland and boring - no matter how "good" they are - they can never compare to real people.

    Give up on pointless AI and servers will not be empty.
     
  11. jimcarrel

    jimcarrel Registered

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    ......and then there is Satellite Internet service.......... no good for online.
     
  12. Natureboy

    Natureboy Registered

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    Yea, sorry for your luck on that one, hopefully high speed is not too far away. Internet access these days is almost a necessity.

    The amount of concern over AI is odd considering that most people should have the ability to go online, and they only need click on the icon with 2 helmets to do so.

    Online is really quite an experience in many ways. It can even be identical in feeling to participating in a real race weekend. In a league or just in an open server the racing/experience is far better online. So, for those who can, please do.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2015
  13. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    +1

    It is a bit hard to know when he does not mention the car he drives.

    Car and Track combos can radically change results using the same Ai settings for all.

    If you can win a race from last the Ai is set too slow.

    As good as they are Ai become predictable, you know the places on tracks they will go right or left almost on queue.

    Which is why online is 200% better , varying lines, brake lockups, drifts , yadda :)

    Like I said Catch 22 till everyone gets online
     
  14. pitkin

    pitkin Registered

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    AI isn't pointless, I get a lot of fun out of racing it. Without the 'pointless AI' I'd never have even bought the game in the first place.
    I've done a fair bit of online a few years ago, but I think iRacing is the only game where it's done right. With iracing there's always a race on when I con make it. I was always grouped with people of equal ability.
    I've race GPL and RF1 online too. Both the leagues I was in I found frustrating. In both the ability of the drivers was too varied. Races with 12 -20 drivers, an alien out front lapping everyone by the end, and the rest of us barely seeing anyone else for the entire race. The one time I was beating the 'alien' (because he spun off) he crashed into the back of me costing me a chance of a win and then quit the race. He apologised the next race claiming he was drunk. Half way through GPL the season we'd gone from 19 drivers at the start to 5 at the end.
    AI don't rage quit, they don't cry when things don't go their way, they all race to match my ability, they all turn up when I want too race, they don't get drunk, they don't suffer connection problems, and they compete in every race in the championship.

    I'm not saying online is bad, It's unbeatable when everything comes together. Outside of iRacing, in about 50 online races, I've had at most 10 that were that good. The rest of the time, it was just too random for me.
     
  15. matf1

    matf1 Registered

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    I'll agree it's not perfect, but I'm kinda picky when it comes to such matters!


    This video demonstrates some custom AI I laid out. The AI that came with this track, like so many third party, are well below what I would consider baseline.
    So I taught myself to fix it. The tools ISI provide are more than adequate to simulate almost any vehicle type, for example GTs using this custom AI are outright maniacal.

    I started building tracks too, and I pride myself on being able to work it all out. Everything!
    You need to be an outstanding young individual fighting for a position in this well populated field, or just plain crazy like our good friend woochoo!

    A team is now required to make not only tracks, but employ all of the features that this simulation is capable of.

    There's work still to be done, but browse through my channel a bit and check out some of the races. A mix of custom and ISI AI.
     
  16. tpw

    tpw Registered

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    @matf1, not only am I impressed with your AI skills, but you can drive the abominable ISI_F2 too!
     
  17. alpha-bravo

    alpha-bravo Registered

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    Very good points pitkin. I like the online events but I also like the AI.
    There are lot of settings available to tweak the AI ( for the case they are a bit of the line) but with the new ISI tracks or VLM (sebring, Mid Ohio) they are good out of the box.
    If people drive on or offline is their decision what I can not like is when some folks write they are bad and ....
    Again this rF2 you can tweak and change endless if you want
     
  18. alpha-bravo

    alpha-bravo Registered

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    Edit: of course the used car mode plays also a big role. But for example ISI cars or the APEX GT3 mod is very challenging against the AI.
     
  19. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    OK, when you go from 18th to 1st in 20 laps, it's time to increase your AI difficulty. Assuming it was one of the road courses, likely it should be around 102-103 for that particular track at your current skill level. As I said before, you do have to adjust the settings for each track to match your own skill level and clearly you're not at the right setting.

    If you were using the oval, forget it. Oval AI is not worth the time and you're better off with live humans at this stage. ISI knows their weakness and that's why I said oval AI is a work in progress.
     
  20. matf1

    matf1 Registered

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    hehe, thanks man. I love that car, can't understand all the hate.
     

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