A little praise for the FFB

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ROON, Jan 13, 2012.

  1. Hybrid

    Hybrid Registered

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    With the rFtrainer you get the feeling how good the FFB is.
    Best car of the beta. And its isnt even a official car. Hehe. :)
     
  2. HuntTheShunt

    HuntTheShunt Registered

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    rF2 by a long way. But that is from memory and memory should not normally be relied on.
     
  3. BobDobbs

    BobDobbs Registered

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    I just fired up GPL last night for a quick comparison and noted a few things:

    1) GPL tracks have little or no irregularities, so you get just a pre-programmed FFB when you hit a curb or run off track. rF2 of course has much more to offer here.

    2) GPL has good default FFB for weight transfer and loss of grip, but can't be tweaked to change the response for different tires or road surfaces. rF2 has many parameters to alter here, but finding the sweet spot is not easy. The defaults are much better than rF1.

    3) GPL does model the static resistance of the wheel at 0 speed very nicely - better than rF1. Not sure if rF2 has fixed this issue, though there does seem to be some improvement.

    Update: after going back into GPL and then into rF2 again within a couple of minutes, I have to say that it is indeed an improvement; static forces are now at least as good as GPL, and of course the dynamic forces are much better. This makes me very happy. If the FFB code itself has been updated from rF1 (as opposed to just better suspension modeling), then it's a win for ISI.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2012
  4. F2kSel

    F2kSel Registered

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    I can't say I find the FFB to be that great, I find it sloppy around the centre with a lack of feel when braking using my Logitech G25.
    I would have to say most other games feel better and more accurate with the exception of LFS which I find un drivable.
     
  5. CdnRacer

    CdnRacer Banned

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    The G25 is known for feeling sloppy around the centre. It has something to do with the little bit of play between the teeth of the gears.
     
  6. F2kSel

    F2kSel Registered

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    I don't mean that sort of slop, I'm referring to the lack of FFB around the centre, you can counter this by increasing the forces overall but I like to run at 45% but then there is little resistance. It's as if the lower the setting the greater the FFB dead zone.

    With reel feel I could change some settings and tighten it up if needed.
     
  7. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    I'm using a G25 the braking in Rf2 is probably the strongest aspect of Rf2 FFB ( excluding Formula Renault 3.5 which lacks ffb feel for me It seems as if the bumps in that car oversaturate the grip and tire FFB)

    From what you have said it has to be the case that

    1) you have your wheel set up totally wrong
    2) your wheel is broken
    3) your insane :p

    LFS for example has very consistent FFB with no Effects just FFB that lets you tell what the car is doing ( although the low grip physics in lfs are awful and its as if the car tires are made of brick) alls LFS FFB is lacking when getting into a tank slapper.

    granted everyone has different taste in FFB and there is a large subjective element to it but objectively the FFB in Rf2 conveys back end grip under braking very well in the sense that the wheel lets you know the back is going off and resists in the correct way to make it easy to correct you might not like how it "feels" but what I am saying is the FFB data is there for you to react to.

    out of intrest how do you have your wheel set up?
     
  8. F2kSel

    F2kSel Registered

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    hi, my wheel is set up as follows.

    420deg rotation
    overall effects 45%
    everything else set to 0%
    cetering spring checked set to 0%
    allow game to adjust settings is checked.


    The reason I don't like LFS is for some reason if I run it for more than 20 minutes my wrists ache so much they hurt for weeks I don't get this in any other game. It's probably because to get the wheel to self centre I have to have the forces set higher than I like and It looks like rF2 is going to be the same.

    I don't like to use centering spring as it kills any feeling.
     
  9. Ricknau

    Ricknau Registered

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    +1

    With my G27 absolutely no physical dead zone at center. The in-car wheel responds as do the front wheels. But there is no ffb until the wheels turn very slightly. This ffb deadzone is also felt (or not felt?) at speed which makes it very hard to drive the car in a straight line.
     
  10. BobDobbs

    BobDobbs Registered

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    I addressed this in another thread, but this captures my feelings about the FFB accurately. My G25 behaves similarly, though the FFB is great otherwise. I don't want to crank up the centering spring, as others have said, because it dampens the FFB noticeably.
     
  11. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I know what your talking about, I brought it up in another thread too. The FFB of the G25 is shut off in the centre and a bit to each side of the centre. Its like this in every game no matter what, there is no way to get around it period. Its one of the main factors of the wheel that completely destroyed my GT Legends times compared to my "old cheap knotchy" Momo Racing wheel.

    I used to get top 10 sometimes top 5 GTL Rank times on 10 lap fuel runs with that old momo racing wheel, with the G25 cant even get close.
     
  12. BobDobbs

    BobDobbs Registered

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    Interesting. I went back into GPL and turned the wheel as I sat in the pit at Monza - and sure enough, there's that same little weak spot in the middle of the range, no matter what angle the car's wheels were turned to! I guess it must be related to the G25 after all, because I don't remember that in my last Logi FFB wheel...

    Can anyone say whether the G27 has a similar problem (it'd be useful if prior G25 owners could comment on this)? I see one post above which indicates it may still be an issue...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2012
  13. Ricknau

    Ricknau Registered

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    Found this in the "G25/G27 horrendous rattling" thread. It could explain the dead ffb action for very small wheel movements (whether at center or off center). After contemplating this I must retract my rebuttal of CdnRacer. He spoke of the G25 "feeling" sloppy, not steering sloppy. That describes the lack of ffb that I am experinceing. My disagreement was based on the fact that I can see the in-game wheels react to the slightest movement of my G27. And here's why I can see the in-game wheels move without feeling ffb. It's because the encoders are fixed to the shaft and have no slop but the ffb is dependant on the gears which have slop. So you see action but feel nothing until the slop is taken out of the ffb gears. And the real bummer is that you can adjust it out of a G25 but not out of a G27. Arrgh!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2012
  14. TonyRickard

    TonyRickard Registered

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    Where is the fun in that? He deserves a good rebuttal :)

    I think the steering in the rF2 60s formula cars is the most natural feeling in a simulator to date. The dilemma for developers is whether to use FFB to feel just like the steering or attempt to convey the seat of the pants feeling we get through other means and lack in a static simulator.

    What I have found in the past is where some rave over being able to feel everything through the wheel it feels unique to a simulator and doesn't actually feel to me like driving a car - and to be believable it has to. Jump in rF2 and it just feels natural.
     
  15. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    You can't dial it out of the g25 trust me I looked into the issue for like 4 years. - heard the dead no ffb area is smaller on the g27 though but still there

    Yes the g25 is wayyy more natural and realistic feeling but I guess I seem to be the type that relies on seat of the pants feel like a real driver rather than audio cues like way overly realistic tyre screeching noises and visual cues and that's where the momo racing wheel helped me so much I think, cause it had the faker but more informative for me ffb, I excelled when playing with ffb effects on full when so many hardcore guys say keep it to low ur its canned, well maybe its canned but those canned effects seemed to tell me what the car was doing like human beings get when they drive a vehicle in real life
     
  16. Ricknau

    Ricknau Registered

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    OK, I've changed my mind again! The problem is a deliberate force deadzone built into the Logitech drivers, not any physical slop in the gears. Nor is it a flaw in rFactor force modeling. It is just that the realism of road vibration they have programed into the game exacerbates the logitech shortcoming.

    I proved to myself it is a logitech driver problem when I realized the same deadzone is evident as soon as Windoows boots and takes control of the wheel. Immediately the deadzone is there. In fact you can feel it change very slightly as the boot process proceeds. Immediately after the wheel spins to its limits you can feel about 1.5 inches of play and then after a few seconds it tightens to about 1 inch of play. It's definiely something programmed in.

    Our problem is that any back and forth action around a zero-force point is going to be felt as a jolt. Up to now I never gave the deadzone any thought because I've alway driven GPL where all the tracks are as smooth as billiard tables.

    I reinforced my conclusion by going to the Logitech website to investigate the forums and report the problem. Of course I learned that I'm just the latest in a long line of people who have already discussed and complained about the issue. Just go to their support forums and do a search on g27 deadzone. The sad/disturbing/aggravating thing is that a Logitech Product Team member replied in one forum that the deadzone is required to keep the two motors from fighting each other. While this may be true it seems like it would be possible to fine tune it to a smaller zone. Further bitching about Logitech's pathetic response solicited no more Product Team replies. (surprise surprise!)

    http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Ga...zone-quot-Firmwareupdate-possible/td-p/454408

    Logitech:
    =============
    "The reason this deadzone exists is because there's a tiny bit of space that's needed to keep the dual feedback motors from interfering. You'll only feel this deadzone in limited situations when there's no feedback effects being played on the wheel, and when racing, these situations are effectively nonexistant.

    While we can update the firmware in the unit, we wont take the deadzone out. It's actually ideal for the performance of the unit."
    =============

    And even though they "can update the firmware in the unit", apparently they've chosen not to.

    And this is my final answer!
     
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  17. CdnRacer

    CdnRacer Banned

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    LOL.




    Looks like Ricknau has done his homework and got it figured out. :D
     
  18. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Yup you got it bro, it'll never get fixed, remember the cobblestone roads in lienz? Well once I upgraded to the “praised by all“ (please lol) g25, I never felt those bumps (or anything at all mind you) again (unless I had the wheel turned a certain amount to the left or right, then the ffb magically switches on).

    I guess racing doesnt require you to feel the road or the car when you have the wheel centered, but only while your turning according to logitech lol what a joke.
     
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  19. Ricknau

    Ricknau Registered

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    I sent an email to Logitech support and urged them to please reconsider coming up with a fix. We'll see what they say.

    Here's what I sent them:
    ===========
    The deliberate force feedback dead zone that is built into the G27 is very detrimental to its viability in newer modern racing sims. I’ve been a devoted G27 user for a couple of years and could tolerate the dead zone because older sims didn’t create any significant forces around the dead zone. But newer sims do and this results in a huge rattling effect when driving a straight line. I understand why the dead zone is there, but if Logitech doesn’t develop a way to reduce it to its absolute minimum the status of the G27 as a premier racing wheel is going to suffer. I’m certain your sales will fall off as a consequence.
    ============
     
  20. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Yup you got it bro, it'll never get fixed, remember the cobblestone roads in lienz? Well once I upgraded to the “praised by all“ (please lol) g25, I never felt those bumps (or anything at all mind you) again (unless I had the wheel turned a certain amount to the left or right, then the ffb magically switches on).

    I guess racing doesnt require you to feel the road or the car when you have the wheel centered, but only while your turning according to logitech lol what a joke.
     

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