A few changes, including refund policy

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 88mphTim, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. Spyder

    Spyder Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2012
    Messages:
    232
    Likes Received:
    1
    I guess they mean "30 days is more than enough time to decide if zero updates within that timeframe is a pace you are happy with" ... or something like that ;)
     
  2. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Likes Received:
    125
    Then it would be prudent to listen to those doubts, if that is what concerns you. If you expect multiple updates within 30 days, and don't get any, then obviously it isn't going to work for you. It's really that simple, if it isn't right for you yet, it isn't right for you yet: Whether that is because there's too many of one type of car, the graphics, the physics, or any other thing you need to say yes or no within those 30 days. :)
     
  3. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,420
    I guess I did't explain myself correctly. I purchased lifetime option the same day rf2 beta was released one year ago. The refund policy change does not affect me directly then. I already lost long time ago any opportunity to get a refund, which in any case I don't want.

    However, I think this policy change indirectly affects me. I think it will be bad for ISI and rf2 this change and it will affect the development of the game. Especially, if no more fresh money enters the company, which I think is going to be the main result from this aggressive marketing strategy. it seems unfair and misleading to me ,the sentence you used that I mentioned. I am not expecting several updates within a month. By using the term development pace you are suggesting there will be a development within that month. I was asking to change that to somehting like:
    If you don't like what you see, you can request a refund.

    Also it is suggested in that same page, that before asking for a refund try to solve problems by looking in the forums.
    This sentence is ridiculous. You are selling a commercial product and instead of offering a technical troubleshooting support, you are telling people to solve them at their own, by reading in a forum that might not even be in their own language. I would suggest that if you release the product, you make sure it works correctly instead of translating the responsibility to the customer.

    This is my point of view and my recommendation and I do not expect any answer from ISI since I don't need to be convinced. You need to convince the rest of the people to purchase the program. I belong to a community where we still cannot hold rf2 championships since most people in our community still have not bought it.


    PD I might have dreamed this also but...

    Weren't we supposed to receive a hard copy of the game to the address we specified when it "turned gold"? I guess this moment has arrived according to the announced change. Personally, I think it wouldn't be serious to release a DVD with Build 134.

    To this question I do want to receive a reply. Thanks and enjoy your weekend
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2013
  4. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Likes Received:
    125
    I think you misunderstand some things:
    ISI has more than one revenue stream. rFactor2 isn't keeping us in business alone. We're actually the oldest sim racing developer I'm aware of, we do ok, thanks. :)

    I'm not suggesting any amount of updates at all. I'm suggesting that you either request a refund, or don't request a refund, within 30 days if you purchase now. Any other thing, like update frequency, appears to be a bias you're carrying into your consideration of what the 30 days means. I brought up updates within 30 days, because it was asked, not because it says anything about it in the policy or anywhere else. We purposely don't give any promise on dates/timing for them.

    How forums work. By sending someone to the forums to solve their problem, they might either find an answer, or they can post to ask for one. Forums are the best and quickest way of getting support. Are you suggesting we tell them to email us, and if they happen to email after 5pm on a Friday, they'll have to wait until maybe Tuesday of the next week (however unlikely it is they would wait that long) for a reply? Or is it better to ask them to go into the forum, where other people who might have had the exact same issue can answer them before we even have a chance to? Our forum members are awesome, and very knowledgeable I'm not sure how much better you think it would be waiting for a response when you're in the beginning of a 30 day window...

    And no, there has never been a mention of sending anybody a hard copy. We haven't even confirmed that rF2 will be on DVD at all. However, it is likely that (like rF1) a later update will be the version we use, if we do.
     
  5. shottyB

    shottyB Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just wanted to chime in to say how disappointed I am with ISI.

    So when the game was first available for purchase, we were promised that we would get 6 months on top of a years worth of the online service once the game is complete. And here we are, we have what's arguably the most convoluted and incomplete sim in comparison with its competitors and Tim announces that we are now out of the Beta phase. Excuse me? What happened to all the cars we were promised? This game isn't even close to feature complete and ISI's greediness has hit new bounds. It was painfully obvious when you guys released the "beta" - which by the way I would classify the game in its CURRENT form as an alpha- and charged people full price for it that you guys really needed the money. And hey- I understand that- you guys do have to operate a business at the end of the day but in my opinion you guys have gone about it in all the wrong ways. As someone who's tried my best to defend RF2 throughout its pathetic life- this is the straw on the camels back.

    Oh and Tim- for you to argue that we aren't in fact paying for the online service now is absolutely ludicrous. You can argue the semantics of what it means to "pay" for the online service all you want- but the fact is we bought a product being promised that the entire time it would be in beta we would not be paying for the online service.

    All that said, I have faith in the product, and I will probably upgrade to the lifetime membership simply because I believe in the developers and the people behind the scenes. You should know however that the business you've conducted here has been shady at best, and I would strongly recommend taking a good look at how you guys have handled this situation instead of adamantly defending your stance.
     
  6. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Likes Received:
    125
    And here I thought I was answering questions.

    Can you clarify how you ARE paying then. If you are saying I am wrong to say you are not? Bear in mind that it's a yearly fee, and you're not due to pay one until June, 2014.

    Thanks. :)
     
  7. shottyB

    shottyB Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gladly.

    I (graciously) paid to become a beta tester under the terms that the yearly fee (which I have PAID for) would not start until the game was feature complete. You have now stated that we are no longer in beta, and we are now on our yearly terms (which we PAID for- it just so happens you promised testers an extra 6 months which was included in the package).

    I don't seem to understand your thought process here, perhaps you could clarify?
     
  8. TTupsi

    TTupsi Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    0
    See it this way: You paid for 18 months subscription which according to the original plan would be due summer 2013. And when will the subscription really end? June 2014. You paid for 18 months year ago and you still have 18 months left. That's a whole 12 months free of charge. I for one am quite happy with it ;)
     
  9. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Likes Received:
    125
    Actually, the initial payment includes 1 year free, nobody pays for their first year. You pay from the second onwards.

    We absolutely, 100%, never said that anything would start when anything was feature complete. Because, we have always, plainly, clearly, said that rF2 may never be feature complete in any timeframe we can estimate. And that we plan to add features and content for many years. If that was the basis for your purchase, I'll argue someone else misinformed you, but I'll make an exception, and offer you a refund now if you feel betrayed on that. Betraying you wasn't anyones intention, and I don't want to take based on that idea, even if it means having to make an exception.

    You were promised an extra 6 months over the 1 year, that's what you're saying? You do realise that by June, 2014, you will have had 2.5 YEARS free, rather than 1 year? If you wanted to really argue that you are paying now, you could argue that in June 2013 as that is when your final free year actually starts, or even December 2013, as that is when your 6 months would start, but again, the first year is always free, so I don't feel that would be correct either, really.

    Again, this isn't an angry response, and none of them have been. I am being asked, and I am trying to answer - that's all.
     
  10. shottyB

    shottyB Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Like I said, I don't want a refund- and in fact I may purchase a Lifetime upgrade in the future. I just wanted to express my discontent with the way you guys have handled the marketing and sales of this product.

    I'm not going to argue this any further if you can't understand that I have paid for that "free year" and that the product as it is can hardly be described as an alpha let alone a beta. You can pass the blame on to the consumer all you want for not doing their due diligence in researching what they were buying- but that should say something about your marketing in general.

    All I'm asking is that you take a step back and take a look at the bigger picture. I know what it's like to be 100% invested in something to the point that it's like your child. But please, for the love of the community, take an objective stance to what you've done here and why so many of your customers are upset.

    My purpose in making that post wasn't to get into a flame war with the developers, and for this reason I think it would be best if I sign off here- I think enough has been said on the subject.
     
  11. deak1944

    deak1944 Guest


    I am not trying to be a smart ass, I really do not get what you are trying to say.
     
  12. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Likes Received:
    125
    I don't feel we either did much to either market or create sales. We had disclaimers everywhere we could put them, and I often told people to wait (oddly this led to many people being angry at me for saying for them to wait). Absolutely everything was subject to change, and under every EULA you've probably ever agreed to, it always is, whether the product was in testing or not.

    However, I understand your stance on this, and although I disagree, I am not sure any discussion can lead to any resolution you'd be happy with on this front. I just hope that there is some belief when I say this isn't an attempt to dupe or betray. Like I said, it would have been possible to make it a lot worse (have you renew in 6 months, for example).

    Thanks for being polite in the discussion. And again, all I was doing was responding, it's nothing against you or those who share your point of view, anything like that. I don't think it would have ever had "flames". :)
     
  13. ZeosPantera

    ZeosPantera Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,397
    Likes Received:
    14
    People will take this change as something bad and begin on the rumor mill http://redd.it/16fqvj

    The main issue Tim, we love ya guys, but there aren't enough ISI employees on here that have all the information we need. You try and PR us but you don't have all the answers. ISI is only a few people and for some reason they aren't all living in one place working in one building where communication is instant and everyone would know everything.

    You really have to look at the other gaming projects going on, Planetside2, Hawken, Project Cars, iRacing, Minecraft, interstellar marines and how they are handling the communication between their user/fanbase and themselves. Game Developers can no longer hide behind their desks, everyone needs to be out here in the pits with the common folk talking, discussing, getting ideas directly from US, how we want things handled because WE are the ones that are ultimately paying the bills (except in the case of ISI we aren't which is probably why this is like it is)

    Gjon should have more posts on here then I do. And he doesn't.
     
  14. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Likes Received:
    125
    Should probably tell that guy who posted above you that he still has 1 year, nobody mentioned anything to do with his purchase changing. He bought 1 year, he gets 1 year. The CHANGE was for people who purchased before the first post in the thread was posted. :)

    With all due respect, one of those examples of communication you are highlighting, I know doesn't do what you say it does. And also released at a very similar state to us, and develops at a rate that I think we can compete with. And is a lot more expensive than we are. And doesn't have a start on a lot of what rF2 has. They also went through a stage where they had a fair bit of negative publicity (and I dealt with that, and held friends on all sides throughout).

    But I understand everything else, but it's also a contradictory request... It's a small team, and you're asking that they all spend their time in the forums... That doesn't seem to support development. Additionally, not everyone can take the sim community (though rF community doesn't seem bad at all compared to others I have experienced), and not everyone can take feedback (of any sort) on their work on somewhere like a forum, they need it to come from a middle man, which is what I try to do for them each week (feeding your info to them). Asking each of them to come here and SEEK info, doesn't seem a productive way of doing it. The way we do it now works very well, they get every bit of info, trust me.

    I'm also here on my Saturday, this isn't something I have to do. But I respect people enough to answer their posts, sometimes it might not be the answer you want. I have no idea how I am trying to "PR" you - I again am just hitting reply, that's all.
     
  15. kotakotakota

    kotakotakota Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2012
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gee, looking at that first post on reddit, "For me this sim has barely changed after one year, it's completely not usable for serious racing," it seems the guy doesn't have a first clue about what real world development is like...

    ZeosPantera, you bring up some good points about communication, I've been wondering where some of the devs are. But in some ways, I like that there is the one "ISI guy" that we go to. Honestly, to me, Tim has sort of become the "face of ISI" and that's fine. It brings in some consistency and makes the community easy to jump into.

    The comments about the different game teams... That's actually very relevant in all areas of development, and different developers have different ideologies in that respect. The question of how much do we trust that the user knows what they actually want? If you look at development of things like Windows 8 or Gnome 3... the feedback is seemingly taken into minute consideration. Why is that? It's because the developers think that they know what the users want better than the users themselves. That mentality is even stronger in the engineering world than in the software world, and I think it works. I for one think it's important we trust ISI with the reigns, because to me at least, it's seems clear that they are looking to make the best racing simulator they can. A highly ambitious project as well for such a small team.

    EDIT: hey Tim, is there a chance we can have a warning when posting after someone else has posted while you were writing the post? that would be really helpful ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2013
  16. shottyB

    shottyB Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    My apologies- misread Tim's post.

    REDACTED
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2013
  17. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    10,725
    Likes Received:
    125
    I wasn't talking about you. Look at the link in the post I quoted.


    Sent from a mobile device using Tapatalk
     
  18. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

    Joined:
    May 24, 2012
    Messages:
    805
    Likes Received:
    38
    Sorry I have to disagree. I don't really care what people call it but it works! We just had a nice 70 lap online race with Megane Trophy at Mills Outer Loop A. 2 hours of practicing, 15 min qual, 5 min warmup and 70 lap race (maybe 1,5 h). Only one problem with one driver who went off the track and missed a lap because that sector wasn't detected by game (probably bug at track). Sure there's work to do for example tire wear apparently doesn't work etc. but it's already mature enough to offer excellent online races.
     
  19. jlmgamer

    jlmgamer Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just I have red all posts here, IMHO the confusion/uncertainty from part of RF community is because nobody had initial product specifications as follows: specific content regarding develop phases, deliver dates, milestones, etc... Now it is producing subjetive opinions about when the product should be change the state, and it is a shared fault from both, sellers and buyers.

    Anyway, from my point of view, it seems that somehow ISI has changed the strategy, since please, let me know if I am wrong, but a Beta version is always following for a Gold version, otherwise it is a different model of develop that it never should be named as Beta. Don't get me wrong, I know changes can happen and it could not be a bad thing, but it should be explained in depth in order to avoid community concerns, and I have missed it from ISI, also a new build containing essentials that help to make undestandable the change of the state, I meant, FPS optimization, complete tyres features, etc.. other way to say that, the kind of core things can not be done for a modder.

    Having say that, I love this sim, the physics are amazing, in fact, IMO is far away the best sim on this feature, I trust that ISI is going to both, support and improving it for next five years, and I am going to get a lifetime upgrade.
     
  20. ZeosPantera

    ZeosPantera Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,397
    Likes Received:
    14
    Take no offense, You are the Public Relations guy and your job is to interact with the public. That said it would just be nice to have a word or two from the people juggling the code around.. Not much, three posts a week? One a week? Honestly if they are truly balls to the walls working round the clock on rF2 24 hours a day 7 days a week they are either the most meticulous coders ever or there aren't enough of them. They should be super enthusiastic to give us the heads up on what they are working on. God if I were making a game/sim/program as anticipated as rf2 I would have a live webcam chat open all day and I would be just spewing out all these great ideas as they happened and taking suggestions and mailing out pizza rolls to anyone who wanted them. Can that really be just me?
     

Share This Page