4 seconds of pace. What to train? :-)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nygaard, Oct 13, 2017.

  1. Nygaard

    Nygaard Registered

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    Ok, Thats a very interesting observation. Some information is clearly not saved then, or an odd difference in griplevel is hardcoded into online vs offline mode. Not what I want to hear :-(
     
  2. Nygaard

    Nygaard Registered

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    Another possible is, that your observation is not right ;-)
     
  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I've found when loading the autosave rubber on a server (such as when a race configuration issue has been found after qualifying, so there's a need to restart the server/weekend to correct it), the rubber isn't the same as it was before. Definitely less grip.

    So it would make sense when you load it offline it would also be different.

    Wind doesn't exist. Humidity doesn't exist. Temperature effect on engine power may exist in some form, but I think it would be negligible in most cases.

    And just to throw it out there - I've more often heard people saying they're quicker offline than online. Also driving offline with AI introduces the (slight) possibility that extra CPU use is causing some slow motion and artificially adding laptime. Multiple versions of mods can be confused offline, online will force a particular version.

    Ultimately this stuff tends to be anecdotal, and 'testing' is fairly unscientific in nature.
     
  4. Kevin Ryan

    Kevin Ryan Registered

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    https://www.mediafire.com/file/i537h3lr0ha8r36/0-2-fastestn.svm

    There's the setup I used. I topped the leaderboard so no excuses :p
    I used low TC and high ABS
    It's all a bit meaningless without the rubber file though. Unfortunately I lost it formatting my hard drive. I would say there was a bit more rubber than the default medium but not much.

    I've noticed the online/offline thing too. When rubber is built up in a session and then you save it and go offline there's a bit less grip. It's really obvious at Bathurst. Most places it's not that noticeable.
     
  5. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    IMO you should have checked if loading a specific realroad file, the result is the same both offline or online. The fact that user autosave doesn't match last realroad is irrelevant and depends on when the file is saved.

    Apart from that, if there is such a big performance difference as some are claiming, proving it right or wrong should be quite easy to do.

    Testing can be as scientific as you want it to be. Especially when yoi are using a simulator. Doing it in real life is the toughest part!!!!
    I am quite surprised of such a sentence coming from you. You can recreate constant driving conditions and check for telemetry differences. You can eliminate tire wear and rubber buildup. You can have everything under control.

    Creating a completely flat surface for testing is very easy. Apart from that you just need time and patience to determine the tests to be made.

    In the case that concerns us two basic things should be looked at: straight line acceleration and turning speed for an average steering angle.

    I don't think it would take more than an hour to check for those difference. I'll try to do it tomorrow evening.
     
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  6. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Hi Nygaard, I started off around 2:05 and I worked my way down to a 1:59.9. It took lots of practice, i.e hundreds of laps, so don't beat yourself up if you are struggling - progress comes slow but it comes.

    I would say pay extremely close attention to the racing line, braking points and gear choice of the fast laps on youtube. Many corners at Silverstone seem kind of slow at first, but when the exact racing line is taken they are actually very fast (eg Maggotts/becketts/chapel). Also corners like Abby and Copse can be taken very very fast - much faster than you initially think. Brake late, get the car rotated at the apex, once you're at the apex open up the steering and mash the throttle to the floor, then wash out all the way to the outside of the track. It's critical that these corners are taken as fast as possible because a heap of time can be gained.

    I would say that the exit of turn for 4 and the exit of Luffield are both very critical to a fast lap. They both lead onto a straight, and they both require you to get the power down hard while traveling slow out of a tight bend - quite difficult to master! You should unwind the steering and get on the power as early as possible, and let the throttle turn the car through the exit. (disclamer: perhaps this is just my driving style but it works for me.)

    Set up is very important... imo reduce camber to around 2.3°, rear wing I think I had at 2, and generally soften up the car and reduce tyre pressures (of course much of this comes down to personal preference). I find that with many cars in rF2, if I set up the car to be a bit softer, it generates almost too much grip!

    Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
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  7. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    OK.
    Been participating in this league since February.
    Been quite competitive, winning races in various different disciplines.
    My race preparaton consists as follows:

    1)Set the conditions offline (time, temp and clouds) same as offline.
    Pretty straightforward as I have noticed there's two fixed sets of weather conditions being used, one for warmer weather and one for colder one, obviously splitting the year in half.
    These conditions are posted in the briefing section of every race.
    2)Go online when alone, make sure I actually venture on the racetrack for an installation lap just to make sure there's nothing strange going on with the realroad being "activated" and such.
    Save realroad.
    Since the practice session has just started (realroad always gets reset every session, be it practice, qualifying or race) people laying rubber down is not an issue.
    3)Go offline and practice incognito using the same exact conditions.

    I have noticed that when going back online I can set faster times easier and some times much easier.
    Also note that lap times is not the only differentiation.
    Extra grip makes the car a lot easier to handle.
    It's not the same for every track.
    But it is not random, it's track specific.
    For example we have used certain tracks like Silverstone or Spa multiple times in various series and the discrepancy between offline and online grip is the same every time.
    Some tracks it's a small difference.
    Since I am chasing tenths and fighting for victory most of the time, sniffing my way through the fasstest line, I have trouble accepting it's all in my head.
    Things in your head usually do not ranslate to victories and lap time.
    Depending on track and the differences in grip I notice offline/online I will take that into account when evaluating my practice times.
    If I can lap the same as everyone else on the official practice sheets when I know the server offers more grip (when it shouldn't) I know I'm going to have a much easier time come the actual race.
    And I have never been proven wrong.
    So how scientific is all this.
    Not much.
    But then again I'm sure the first time I saved the realroad and took it offline I did not do so with the purpose or expactation to find a difference creating a placebo effect.
    Unfortunately I am not inclined to install telemetry to prove it, I just hoped it was more straightforward thatn that and not just my own observation.
    As fot the final verdict I do not mind.
    As they say, if it ain't broken don't fix it.
    My race prep has served me well so far, was just curious why this happened is all.

    On a final note, there's people who for whatever reason like to load the car with 2 laps worth of fuel and go at it all the time.
    I can understand why they would have trouble replicating their super fast offline lap under th spotlight.
    So people setting slower times online does not surprise me at all.
    You will find that those actually preparing for the race and not a qualifying session generally do not have something like this happening.
    Those preparing with low fuel quali runs are generally inexperienced drivers struggling to keep up with the faster ones, one day they get to learn like we all did.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
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  8. Nygaard

    Nygaard Registered

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    Should be interesting to see:)

    If several people experience the same discrepancy over and over again i would call that scientific.

    Basically they predict the outcome of an future event based on their theory. if they are experienced, not much is changed with regards to average lap times from race to race exept track conditions. weather etc.

    Describing the theory require telemetry data I think.

    by the way, I like theese discussions a lot. very interesting to hear people experiences and how they got better. Very helpfull.

    Yesterday i got to 1:03:3 at silverstone intetnational. unfortunately I cannot practice for the next week(holidays) :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
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  9. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @christos_Swc said he was jumping online, saving the realroad, and using that. I was relating what I'd found in the exact same circumstances.

    I know you can be scientific about it, my point is most observations regarding this (hence why I quoted 'testing') are not scientific. Please do go ahead and do it do reduce/remove doubt. And please stop treating what I say like I'm writing my obituary; I'm relating something I found, and making some observations, and what I say doesn't always mean what you immediately think it does.
     
  10. Ari Antero

    Ari Antero Registered

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    If i remember right WFG server settings was RR, Test team heavy and time scale static.
     
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  11. Nygaard

    Nygaard Registered

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    Ok, I have to try that..
     
  12. Ari Antero

    Ari Antero Registered

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    If you assign bottom to TC to switch it on where you need TC and off where you don`t need it you gain lot off time ;)
     
  13. TheMattyOnline

    TheMattyOnline Member

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    Would it be a benefit to use the DAMplugin to record motec files both online and offline to see if anything is changing in your driving between the 2 sessions?
     
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  14. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I didn't understand it like that. I understood it as a general statement. That's why I said I was surprised of you saying that. I consider you a methodic person.
     
  15. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    @Lazza Nor a personal attack or infuriated response lol, I just finally decided to make a more thorough explanation of my experience, and state of mind regarding this as well.
    Rereading it today I can see why it may have come out as agressive but it's my style to just try to be exact and informative with unfortunate disregard to sweetening or polishing my style with smileys and such.
    So sorry if I made you feel I was attacking you, not what was intended for.
    Need to make clear I perfectly understand why people would be sceptical about my claims (although I would hope others would have experienced the same and not have to).
    If there's one person who is sceptical about such things it's me, I'm used to not paying too much attention to others reporting strange things with no proof, I guess it comes down to experience.
    Absolutely do not expect/demand that you take my word for it.
    But at least now you know how I go about things and how I came to these conclusions.
     
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  16. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Not only would it be good. It is the way to go.
     
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  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @christos_Swc I think we've got our wires crossed mate. My post was in response to spaskis, I was just pointing out how/why I posted my own experience in relation to what you'd said. If it wasn't clear when I first said, I was just saying that when I've saved and loaded on the server-side, the grip also changed.

    @SPASKIS I know you didn't understand it like that, but that's how I meant it.
     
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  18. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    Actually I completely missed that and my post was not in response to yours.
    So there's is something there that is not just in my head hopefully.
    But in all honesty it is something I have learnt to live perfectly fine with so I can never get myself to go on about investigating further.
     
  19. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I juts finished the tests I promised.
    Test was done with latest v1.70-1.71 (released yesterday) and with Build 1109 Dx9

    Both "Straight line acceleration" and "Constant steering acceleration" tests show exactly the same results both offline and online.
    No need to say that both scenarios were setup withthe same configuration.
    From the physics point of view it is the same sim both offline and online. (I think that collision modelo differs)

    I uploaded the DAM plugin logs in case someone wants to check himself.

    Straight line acceleration tests (Online vs Offline)
    upload_2017-10-17_22-29-58.png
    upload_2017-10-17_22-30-26.png

    Constant Steering acceleration tests (Online vs Offline)
    upload_2017-10-17_22-28-9.png
    upload_2017-10-17_22-28-48.png
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Nygaard

    Nygaard Registered

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    Thanks for you work on this spaskis.
    Regarding straight line acceleration:
    I think the mc-laren is to low powered to see any noticeable difference. The brakes are much more powerfull, so straight line acceleration from braking will be much more affected by available grip.
    Slam the brakes at the same speed and see if there is any difference in acceleration.

    Constant steering position (constant radius)
    It looks like you stay off the limit, so we cant see if this limit is different. If there is a difference in grip you will begin to slide at a lower speed at constant radius.

    By the way! You are doing a nice job at keeping the same steering angle at 300 kph :)!
     

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