[REL] 1991 Group C v1.1 Released

>>>>>Speaking of how this mod handles in the wet, I think it is fantastic, definitely one of the best utilization of rF2 wet physics out there. Cars are twitchy, but they don't snap off totally uncontrolable even you you handle them with great care, feels just right. I think they take power way to easily out of very slow corners

Thanks, it really took some time to calibrate them. Grip in the wet can be considered a lot or a few depending on how much water we think is on the track. We took as reference that 100% wet should be still driveable for most of people, since rain amount is not very easy to control and we believe that most of users/servers will end running 100% wetness many of the times. We could have set that 100% wet meant +60 seconds, +45, or +30 seconds of dry lap times, but possibly those conditions create so much chaos and uncertainty that are not enjoyable for most of users, so we decided to choose a more forgiving calibration.


>>>> I noticed that it is super difficult to heat up rain tires. Is it known thing that they were like that ? I would expect rain tire not to be very hard to maintain good temps durning ~20C day with rain. I have made an impression, that while they seem to heat up well, they seem not to store the heat generated, and transfering it back super quickly. I also suppose that I may not understand rF2 tire application very well. I suppose it could be showing only surface temperature, and cure temps could be good ?

It depends on compound you are using and wetness on track.
'Wet' compound heat up easily on most of conditions, since its optimum temperature is around 58ºC, while 'Intermediate' optimum temperature is around 78º.
Next image shows how they usually heat up to their corresponding optimum temperature, given a pure % of wetness.
'Dry' compound will probably be cold as soon as there is some wetness on track. 'Intermediate' will be cold from 60% wetness. 'Wet' compound will only be slightly cold at around 90-100% range.
Tread surface don't store heat generated because transfers it quickly to water on track, while friction on corners is also softened by wetness.
But yes, core temperatures are often hotter than tread temperatures. You can check that stopping on the wet track (after some laps rolling), and then start moving slowly again.

Hey, I see you are testing deeply and improving your lap times! Well done! But remember: Never, never ever try the wet tyre on a dry track... You are advised :rolleyes:;)
 

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Thank you @knackko really looking forward to it :)

Raintyre said:
Thanks, it really took some time to calibrate them. Grip in the wet can be considered a lot or a few depending on how much water we think is on the track. We took as reference that 100% wet should be still driveable for most of people, since rain amount is not very easy to control and we believe that most of users/servers will end running 100% wetness many of the times. We could have set that 100% wet meant +60 seconds, +45, or +30 seconds of dry lap times, but possibly those conditions create so much chaos and uncertainty that are not enjoyable for most of users, so we decided to choose a more forgiving calibration.
Click to expand...

I think it might actually be rather realistic now. Taking things that rF2 does not simulate into account. With slippery rubbered/polished tarmac patches, and with hydroplaning due to speed/puddles it would be quite spot on, I think.

I have plenty questions there. Is there a way to know how much percents of wetness is reached ? Right now I am also guessing that visually and from laptime. Also what would be equivalent to 100% 10mm, 20mm water ? Also could servers set up ceiling for wetness ?

Essentially high downforce cars with good rain tires with good solid pressure should be able to remove a lot of water from under the contact patch. I wouldn't expect such car to be slower than 30s in track like Matsusaka in rain, unless it is some crazy red flag situation.

As ACC was released I had a lot of fun with rain, worked so great in first release. In "storm" conditions with rain tire car was 20s slower, and with slicks it was a bit over a minute slower and quite extreme lol


Raintyre said:
'Wet' compound heat up easily on most of conditions, since its optimum temperature is around 58ºC, while 'Intermediate' optimum temperature is around 78º.
Next image shows how they usually heat up to their corresponding optimum temperature, given a pure % of wetness.
'Dry' compound will probably be cold as soon as there is some wetness on track. 'Intermediate' will be cold from 60% wetness. 'Wet' compound will only be slightly cold at around 90-100% range.
Tread surface don't store heat generated because transfers it quickly to water on track, while friction on corners is also softened by wetness.
But yes, core temperatures are often hotter than tread temperatures. You can check that stopping on the wet track (after some laps rolling), and then start moving slowly again.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I guess I might have ran on 100% yesterday. My usual settings are 10x time, and 5x real road iiric. I suppose only real road setting should affect how fast track will get wet, or time might also have an effect ? Weather settings was not storm, medium rain, but it is kinda hard to judge in rF2 how much it actually rain, some tracks with well done puddles gives a bit better clue, but still..
 
mantasisg said:
Is there a way to know how much percents of wetness is reached ? Right now I am also guessing that visually and from laptime. Also what would be equivalent to 100% 10mm, 20mm water ? Also could servers set up ceiling for wetness ?
Click to expand...

At least one of current rf2 huds shows how much is raining and how much wetness is left in track. It's about percentage, not sure how much it is in mm³ .

Once you find it, enter a rainy session , let rain fall without driving and save real road on different wetness levels.

After that I recommend you set realroad to 'static' and load a wet realroad on a new session. If there is no more rain or AI drivers realroad will not change and you will be almost sure that you are driving on wetness shown by rf2 hud.
 
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RF2 shows wetness in percentage. But I have to notice an important thing. When it start raining and the track is getting wet, the wetness is equal on the broad of the track. But when rain stops and the track start to dry out the percentage you see is not equal on all the broad of the track. This mean that the percentage could be 50% but the track could have a totally dry line.
 
First of all thanks to all involved for another great update and a very informative manual about the different cars and their characteristics. The mod is at a point now where it is allmost perfect with a few little things to note, that are mianly connected to the offline experience. I only tested the Porsche so far and it is a pleassure to drive the car and test the different setup options. As others have allready pointed out it would be nice to have one conistent FFB setting that follows the rF2 standard. This should also make it easier to work with feedback regarding physics and what people think about the FFB. The second thing I would like to see removed is the pit limiter. Those cars didn't have them, so I it would be nice to see that feature implemented as realistic as possible. The third and last complaint are the AI drivers. I tested them at Suzuka and considering I normaly play against 100-105%, they were simply too fast for me even at 85%. I mean, I am certainly not the fastest guy and still in the process of learning proper heal and toeing, but me and the AI doing 1:49s at 85% difficulty is simply too much for qualy trim. Keeping different track configurations, grip levels etc in mind I would say that the AI has too much grip. If they did those 1:49s at 100% difficulty it would feel quite reasonable and looking at the statistics from that year pretty much spot on. Another little issue with the AI is their situational awareness. It sometimes feels as if they don't respect the player or each other and I got rear ended quite often - wich again could be down to their higher grip levels.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but I really would like to see this mod reach it's full potential. It has come so far over the years and I can only dream how nice it would be with a better gear box model and with the new shader systems implemented and with those little issues fixed. Because other than that it is a top notch update and more cars from the same year would be the icing on the cake. :)
 
Guys, I am just curious - what is the problem with lowering AI strength? AI can be adjusted as low as 70%, so why not do that? AI strength has to be found for each individual series anyway, including rain vs dry, as they all are different, and that's simply a price of flexibility rF2 offers (simulated range from Karts, monster trucks to F1).

Agree on pit limiter removal request - would like unrealistic aid removed as well. Maybe that could be achieved via upgrade, so that people who prefer limiter could still have it?

Other than that really one of the top quality content for rF2, fantastic work team. Cars are so different from GT cars and require higher driving skill, and are so fast that is even scary :D
 
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I've not been reading this thread too closely, but when comparing Suzuka 1991 times to Matsusaka laptimes, I think it's the Old Chicane layout that should be used. It has the tighter chicane which is used in motorcycle racing, though I don't think it's exactly the same as the actual old Suzuka chicane. Fairly similar though. Much more so than the modern GP chicane. Perhaps that's the layout that already is being used for comparison anyway? Then all good, and good move. There are other minor layout differences from the 80s-90s, even up to the mid-2000s i think (besides any minor inaccuracies there may or may not be in Matsusaka). But I don't think anyone is getting too hung up on the comparison, so it's all good :)
 
Just some information regarding the ffb options in the upgrades section for all our mods, these settings only affect ffb strength, they do not alter the ffb characteristics, and this was done because the ffb fidelity is different on various wheels, Back in the day when we had one configuration, people used to find it difficult to be happy with the ffb and some wanted it higher, some wanted it lower depending on the hardware they had, and as we all know, it is impossible to please everyone. When you compare different manufactured wheels from one end to the other, there is a massive difference in sensitivity, so there are steps in the upgrades to allow people to pick a baseline that works for them and tune from there with the wheel configuration. There is no single setting that is perfect for everyone.

Regarding the pit limiter, until such time that the ai behave in a correct manner without a pit limiter, the pit limiter will remain on. Now I know a lot of people will say they don't care about ai, or they don't use ai, but this mod is made for everyone and it is no fun watching the carnage ensue because the ai are maniacs without it and coming into the pits to an ai pile up will cause as many comments about that lol. I appreciate that people wan't authenticity but in this case functionality comes before that regarding the pit limit. It is something that will be looked at as the game progresses forward and when it improves, the pit limiter will be removed.

Currently I am waiting for S397 to release the PBR update for moddev, at the moment it is only useful for them and their content, and they have decided to cater to the car skinners before the content creators for their GT3 content, so it only works in single player mode. Of course if we were alllowed to work in single player mode like S397 do, then it would be game on now. tbh it is about time that focus was put on content creators requests because it will provide a much longer life for rF2 in the long run and it is incredibly frustrating working in moddev, so much is broken in there in comparison to the single player build. So there will be a future update for PBR at some point, and all things discussed in this thread will be evaluated by myself and the guys at that point, and changes made where possible when I come back to it.

The ai are strong and it's a partly a side effect of getting the ai to the position where they have good balance with each other and are able to drive these cars well, I am sure that this is something that Damian and Alvaro will look into to improve for you guys, and any improvements will come when PBR is mature enough and an update is prepared.

Lastly, sound, sound balancing has been made for 'stereo' speaker systems in this last update, but sadly we do not have anyone on the team using 5.1 sound, so were unaware of how the balance is there right now apart from a comment made here, and it is not practical to try configurations and make a single player build to pass to someone willing to test, and go backwards and forwards like that. Of course if S397 want to enlighten us all with some dedicated information regarding developing this stuff, then we can look into it.

Please don't think I am complaining or whinging, I just wanted to explain the current situation regarding certain elements of this mod and go into a bit more detail to help people understand where we are coming from, we are so pleased that you guys are enjoying the mod, certainly makes all the time we have put into it worth it, and it does take us longer than some mod groups because commercial work loads and family life always interferes with the free mod stuff. But, I have to leave Group C for the time being because there is a lot of other content coming, which I won't go into to, but I will be back on Group C when S397 and their PBR Moddev update exists;) that's for sure.

Regards.
 
mesfigas said:
i v done a test :)
Matsusaka AI 103%
Norma i m 2.5-3.5 seconds slower than AI
Oreca i m 2.5-3.5 seconds slower than AI
GTE Porsche i m 2.5-3.5 seconds slower than AI
GT Callaway i m 2.5-3.5 seconds slower than AI
Group C v1.1 any car i m 11 seconds slower than AI
all cars used default setup and fuel for 10 laps
Click to expand...
Highlandwalker said:
Somebody telling the truth. The AI is definitely to fast for us old slow drivers, would be nice if this was looked at. I have reverted back to version .96 so I can have a decent race with the AI.
Click to expand...
Set AI to 100%.
Begin a track session and turn on AI for your own car, let it run 10 laps. If the best lap times are within about a second the AI profiles are generally optimized for single player. I find they're a good bit faster. Probably the only downside.
 
Thank god, i am not alone. I usually put AI to 120% - guess what ? even at 100% in Spa i am 5-7 sec to slow, AI is so fast in the corners , wtf ?!? :mad::D
edit: and like hitmak3r: i am not able to do a proper race with the AI at 90%/-92% with 0% agression. i am always been kicked from track from behind and sides.

Apart from that: What a nice piece of work, models and sound, really great! And driving is also big fun. FFB is a bit to stiff for my wheel/taste in lowest setting. Some more triangles in the cockpit, two more cars and this would be perfect. And an extra big THX for that outstanding manual!
 
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Liquid4653 said:
Just some information regarding the ffb options in the upgrades section for all our mods, these settings only affect ffb strength, they do not alter the ffb characteristics, and this was done because the ffb fidelity is different on various wheels, Back in the day when we had one configuration, people used to find it difficult to be happy with the ffb and some wanted it higher, some wanted it lower depending on the hardware they had, and as we all know, it is impossible to please everyone. When you compare different manufactured wheels from one end to the other, there is a massive difference in sensitivity, so there are steps in the upgrades to allow people to pick a baseline that works for them and tune from there with the wheel configuration. There is no single setting that is perfect for everyone.

Regarding the pit limiter, until such time that the ai behave in a correct manner without a pit limiter, the pit limiter will remain on. Now I know a lot of people will say they don't care about ai, or they don't use ai, but this mod is made for everyone and it is no fun watching the carnage ensue because the ai are maniacs without it and coming into the pits to an ai pile up will cause as many comments about that lol. I appreciate that people wan't authenticity but in this case functionality comes before that regarding the pit limit. It is something that will be looked at as the game progresses forward and when it improves, the pit limiter will be removed.

Currently I am waiting for S397 to release the PBR update for moddev, at the moment it is only useful for them and their content, and they have decided to cater to the car skinners before the content creators for their GT3 content, so it only works in single player mode. Of course if we were alllowed to work in single player mode like S397 do, then it would be game on now. tbh it is about time that focus was put on content creators requests because it will provide a much longer life for rF2 in the long run and it is incredibly frustrating working in moddev, so much is broken in there in comparison to the single player build. So there will be a future update for PBR at some point, and all things discussed in this thread will be evaluated by myself and the guys at that point, and changes made where possible when I come back to it.

The ai are strong and it's a partly a side effect of getting the ai to the position where they have good balance with each other and are able to drive these cars well, I am sure that this is something that Damian and Alvaro will look into to improve for you guys, and any improvements will come when PBR is mature enough and an update is prepared.

Lastly, sound, sound balancing has been made for 'stereo' speaker systems in this last update, but sadly we do not have anyone on the team using 5.1 sound, so were unaware of how the balance is there right now apart from a comment made here, and it is not practical to try configurations and make a single player build to pass to someone willing to test, and go backwards and forwards like that. Of course if S397 want to enlighten us all with some dedicated information regarding developing this stuff, then we can look into it.

Please don't think I am complaining or whinging, I just wanted to explain the current situation regarding certain elements of this mod and go into a bit more detail to help people understand where we are coming from, we are so pleased that you guys are enjoying the mod, certainly makes all the time we have put into it worth it, and it does take us longer than some mod groups because commercial work loads and family life always interferes with the free mod stuff. But, I have to leave Group C for the time being because there is a lot of other content coming, which I won't go into to, but I will be back on Group C when S397 and their PBR Moddev update exists;) that's for sure.

Regards.
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Thanks for explaining the reasons for keeping pit limiter, it now makes sense :)
 
I have quite negative experience with Mazda in Lemans 1991 track, and a bit less negative experience with C11 in same track.

I did not understand if that is track issue, or cars issue. Bumps seem extremely severe, and does not only have bump effect, but essentially affect steering. Slow turns gave very little steering resistance, though naturally at lower speeds you'd expect it. Also I get forces inversion at heavily cambered indianapolis turn, which I don't understand what could make it so. Also going through Porsche curve mid turn I don't feel like if I would have steering at all with Mazda, with C11 a bit better. And mazda has huge caster, i suppose still less trail.

Next I went to try SPA and Barcelona conversions from AC. With C11. It felt really awesome there. Did 1'39 and 2'02.

Decided to try C11 with SPA setup in Le mans. Feels like tiny bit more caster, much softer front end ARB, and more downforce gives much better steering. Next time going to try with much softer springs and dampers for low downforce setup, and see if I culd actually get to feel good at Le Mans, because I don't really enoy the cars there in particular.

I also suspect that AC conversions of Spa and Barcelona, has very high grip, and perhaps that compensates for possibly too low base grip of the cars ? Understeer is not as severe in those tracks, unlike in other tracks car starts skidding at front within very average steering inputs. Load sensitivity seems more pronounced there, or just driving force slip, IDK. I still can hammer the throttle, but needs some modulation.

As much as I watch vids with these cars, they never really slide, you can see drivers correcting understeer quickly straightening the weheel and turning in again, it is never slow action. Also same for oversteer, I see they often have this kind of "punch oversteer" going on, when they never really drift or powerslide on exit but they get rear end to step out rapidly which they also have to correct with fast steering.

"punch oversteer" as at 5:05 and some understeer/oversteer balancing before that

As for 1991 Lemans track, I think it has some too severe jolts, which does not work with the bumpsteer of the cars. However, track is clearly not bumpy enough as well, as seen from this video approaching indianapolis is as bouncy as it can be 4:45 in the vid. Also you can see plenty of "punch oversteer" slaps with full power of that stuck turbo, but it shows well how the group C car is not about passive slow slides, but very much about sudden quick punches, thats why I associate it with load sensitivity, it shows it has lots grip, but it can go away very quickly, producing very quickly occuring short slides. Also I have read that Blundell said that car was spinning tires even at 4th gear, it wasn't even with qualy tires lol and it beat closest rival by 6 seconds.

4:45 maaan
 
@Liquid4653....

Thanks once again for this mod. Hope 397 give you the tools you need (and fix the wheel blur I reported on Steam....;)).

As for the AI, we run league races with ‘extreme’ tyre and fuel settings (x7 and x4 - although I can never remember which way around....) for over an hour (no AI in league races).

In offline practice, the AI cars are - unfortunately - impossible to race sensibly with as they just blast around in full boost for a few laps and then pit - whereas the ‘league-world’ race strategy is almost invariably a fuel-saving one. I’m guessing that this is all game-engine rather than mod-related....?

Also, the tyres never seem to completely die? Is there a minimum grip level that eventually never changes?
 
Raintyre said:
Try this track. By this user's video, bumps look well done:
Click to expand...

Yes I will, definitely hope to get low six minutes lap.

That is also "borrowed" AC track. IMO AC Nordschleife is a bit smoother and more predictable grip than it actually is.

Looking forward for official rF2 Nords.

Interesting how the guy in the video decides not to take caracciola carousel.
 
While I join some servers people ask me about car setups (Porsche and Mazda). Isn't possible to detail each setup for each track, so I'll try to give some general tips about how to setup the cars, to save testing time. The most important things are already in the manual.

- Over all the other things, the most important is fuel, always. You could go as a rocket, but it isn't the most important, if you have to use a ton of fuel, you will lost all that gained time at the pits. You must start with the lowest boost/mixture possible (possition 7 or 8/15 on the Porsche, mixture "Endurance" on the Mazda). Later with the setup stablished, rise the boost/mixture if needed, but don't start with maximum boost/mixture because power will mask the setups problems. Start with few and then add if needed. Races are a pit stop chess, make a friend your race engineer to help you while you drive.

- High and Low downforce: It could be a tentation to use the low downforce at some tracks as Paul Ricard, Road America or other fast tracks, BUT, after some laps you will realize that the front tyres dies quickly. Use High downforce configuration at front at every track unless you are at Le Mans or Daytona. Even on those tracks a High downforce could work, it's all about what's your better rythm.

- Rev up the Mazda as high as you can at every gear (taking care of the rev limiter), because the power peak is exactly at 9000 RPM. If you don't feel confortable reving so high lower the mixture because other way you are using too much fuel all the time without reaching the power peak.

- Use the WSC engine on the Porsche first, unless you want a brutal peak of power in a short time lapse, if that's what you need for your car setup then use the IMSA engine. (We know the IMSA engine is the default engine, but we uses it to set the AI cars. Maybe we should switch in the future).

- Don't make it too complex with setups. First decide your strategy, high or low power (as fuel consumption), then knowing the power output you will use, setup the rear wing (it's supposed that front wing is in high possition) to balance the rear tyres heat/wear. The cars are very responsive to suspension changes. Once you know the power and wing settings you will use, setup the springs, dampers, roll bars, packers (those ones are very important) and weight distribution. Finally balance those items to get a stable car behaviour. The best lap times will come with practice and with a confortable driving more than with pure power.

- Weight distribution. At the start of the race you will have 100 litres of fuel, that weighs 74 kilos just behind your back. All that weight will make the car understeer. So, to get a good average balance throught the race don't setup the car with a full tank or dry one, make it with 50 litres. At the end of the race, with the tank almost dry, weared tyres and 700HP, the car will have oversteer. Take tha in mind when prepare your setup.

- For qualifying, the second lap on the tyres (Goodyear and Dunlop) is the best one, tyres are still with low pressure and tyres at not so hot, they could be good at the third lap if you do the outlap at low speed. Yokohama tyres need 1 or 2 more laps than the others.

- Finally, do at least 3 laps to reach the operational tyre pressure before decide something about the setup. The tyres stabilize after reach the operational pressure. So, be patient and be carefull with the throtle the first two laps.
 
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