[REL] 1991 Group C v1.1 Released

Discussion in 'Vehicles' started by Petros Mak, Dec 24, 2015.

  1. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    Not sure if I put this link up before, but here's a 12 minute clip of a 962 & C11 going at it at Monza in 2017.
     
  2. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Had a brief online race first time in rF2 with this mod today in matsusaka. Pretty cool. Alvaro was there, who is creator of the physics, so it was nice.

    I pretty much only drive C11, because I just couldn't ever force myself to pick other car.

    I expressed my dislike about steering and grip.

    I think something is strange about steering, it doesn't give any confidence for turn in. Less caster feels absolutely bad, more caster feels better, but you have to reduce FFB mult for it. Matsusaka is modeled very smooth, doesn't have bumps. In bumpy track ffb/steering is too rough. Steering doesn't have a feeling of progress, except in highspeed banked curves. I bet something is wrong with geometry. The fact that mod uses different sets of "FFB" makes no sense to me, first of all because you can't use upgrades online, or at least I don't know how, second - why not just make one good.

    Tire grip is interesting subject. On the one hand, cars does superb laptimes at matsusaka, and I suppose too quick because I don't expect to be as fast as pro drivers of 1991 season, and not even putting effort in that. On the other hand at least C11 feels like it has insane lack of grip on front end. I had zero worries about oversteer, or putting power down even with full boost anywhere on the track. I have not tried my best to shift grip balance from rear to front yet, still extreme options to use - remove all of rear downforce, stiffen up rear end as much as possible, and soften front as much as possible, or in other words completely ruin the car trying to remove understeer.

    The understeer is crazy at "anti-banked curve" as the name suggest it should have negative banking, so it makes sense to have worse grip there, but not that much worse. Such huge sensitivity for camber of the road shows that grip might be managed all about basic friction which is too low. I would guess that grip is very much about basic long/lat coeficient, and guess that the load sensitivity is way way way too forgiving, because of that basic lat/long grip is very low, otherwise car would be much too fast. And it already seems like it is too fast, but also Matsusaka could be too fast, or at least faster than in 1991. There are also other factors which could make the car faster than it should be. More load sensitivity and less sliding friction would have massive difference. Load sensitivity would require better throttle modulation at exits, and more effort in braking at lower speed when downforce is not too effective...

    Probably weird front grip amplifies weird steering feel.
     
  3. Raintyre

    Raintyre Registered

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    Hello, mantasisg. Thanks for your opinion, but, dont you think that, when it is your "first time" using something, normally you are not in the best position to judge the object you are using for the first time and present to the world ellaborated speculation about the issues you think there are inside and also recommendations to solve the issues you think there are in the object you use for the first time in your life ? mate !!! :)

    Please check the attached image, which corresponds to session log you attended today:
    Your tyre wear is very small, almost half of the rest of contenders. I am afraid you are not making full use of your tires, you are not pushing them enough to their limits, hence you don't achieve enough cornering speeds. Very probably that is also the reason why your lap times were around 3 seconds slower than other contenders (given same amount of fuel). Please, try other steering wheel configurations, explore car setup possibilities, practise more.
     

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  4. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    I spent an hour hot-lapping Spa with the C11 yesterday and yes, i agree to a centain extent that with the default set up, the front end is a little tricky to turn in. However, I disagree that this means that something is wrong with the geometry and therefore should be changed; it should be treated as a vehicle characteristic and not a defect. This characteristic is mentioned in the manual - it is no accident. What is clear to me is that, for what the C11 lacks in front end grip on corner entry, it makes up for on exit.

    So ok, you find yourself in the C11 on a track with one too many off-camber corners and it is slowing you down, so this is what you need to do: Tune the car to the track and to your tastes. You don't need to go nuts and 'remove all of rear downforce, stiffen up rear end as much as possible, and soften front as much as possible'

    Firstly, 'more caster feels better, but you have to reduce FFB mult for it'.... so do it, reduce the multiplier, it's not a crime - that's what it's for. More caster increases the 'real' lateral force on the steering shaft; your ffb wheel is limited in it's power, so you must reduce the multiplier. After this, on the front end, I would reduce the camber, dampers, spring-rate and tyre pressure. Raise at the front the ride height, downforce and roll bar. Again, all of these changes should be quite subtle (10-20%) - the combined effect is possibly huge. The point is that you can tune out minor problems rather than expect the dev to rethink the physics.

    Also try out the 787B and the 962C - they are also sensational.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
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  5. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It is probably true, I shouldn't have judged something by trying for first time. But the first time was driving online, not the car. I have driven the car quite a bit before, I also have drive C9 a lot in Assetto Corsa, I think C9 is one of the best AC cars.

    I just spent respectable time in single player, and I want to ask, is it possible that rF2 physics are better in singleplayer than online ? I had no issues with steering in singleplayer. Online it felt much worse. Understeer through curve which is called "anti-banked" was not as severe and unbelievable, steering overall was more responsive, FFB felt more detailed, better resolution. After trying default settings, I also tried other stuff, I found FFB type #3 best for me, 2x softer front arb and more front downforce bias also did good. And it was actually very enjoyable, unlike I experienced online.

    My pace was the same though, I don't remember how well I did online, I think in practice it was ~1'50 for me, so it was in single player. In online race I ran lower boost and finished second. Perhaps I had lower tire wear because I didn't use max boost. Also lets consider that looking after a tire is also a skill :D I hope to have more online races with you.

    I still keep my opinion about grip, though car felt better in single player. I think grip is weird in some occasions. I really enjoyed wet and intermediate tires, I thought they were awesome, though imo they are not twitchy enough, I had an idea that wet tire is as twitchy as I'd expect dry tire to be. So yeah thats my opinion about grip.

    I always race with AI at 105, usually beat them. With C11 AI did 1'40 at Matsusaka, 10s faster than me, and I also think I shouldn't be able to do 1'50 so easily.

    By the way, rain is awesome at night, because then reflections does not mess things up in the windshield.

    Conclusion: mod is a keeper, but online was something bad, I don't know id that is at my end or what... singleplayer was much better.
     
  6. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    Spent some time running all 3 at Daytona as that's the track I spent the most time with on setups with the previously release. Tuning starts in the Showroom with aero settings for me. Mostly subtle changes from my previous setups although the aero changes made a larger difference on the 787 for me. On the C11 turn-in grip wasn't a problem so much as premature locking of the fronts. Looking back at the MoTec data from the previous confirmed my impression. Also seems like part of the power band was shifted downward in RPM, but I didn't compare the exceptional documentation MAK released with both versions.

    While I'm not the fastest driver in simland, once tires are up to temp my lap times are pretty consistent generally +/- .015 seconds across the next 5-8 laps. I keep all 4 wheels on the pavement including the Bus Stop. Previously the C11 lap times were in the 1:32's, 962 was in the 1:33's and the 787 in the 1:34's. Now they all seem to even out at 1:33 for me. That's a good thing in for simland otherwise folks would all be choosing the same cars depending on the track. Of course thats only one track and I haven't run extended time to check reliability or wear rates.

    The other thing I noticed in the showroom and on track is the 787 & 962 is the cars look better on my 4K monitor.
     
  7. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    i have same problem :)
    AI is like 10 seconds faster always
    haha
     
  8. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Registered

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    Usually they are very fast at 100%. It's a very track dependant value.

    I use them at 100% at Sao Paulo, 85% at the new Sebring and at Paul Ricard. Most of the other tracks work well between 92 and 95%. Always with aggresion at 5%
     
  9. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    `haha i play at 103% at every track
    so i m wrong:)
     
  10. Liquid4653

    Liquid4653 Registered

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    not wrong, ambitious;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  11. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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  12. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Registered

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    Good to hear about the .ini

    About the servers, there are two championships just starting, one from ODS (Old Drivers Spirit) and the other one by SR4L (Sim Racing 4 Life). Racedepartment is hosting club events too, but you have to be premium member to be able to join.
     
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  13. Raintyre

    Raintyre Registered

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    Real Group C cars 'suffered' from understeer on corner entry, like most of classic high powered vehicles, but it is just one of the ways to compensate oversteer tendency when applying throttle. When you've got 700-900HP it is a priority to use them as soon as possible or you will lose time on the next straight. If your car were already oversteering at the apex, your rear tyres would not cope with the extra work of pushing forward the vehicle.
    Furthermore, you also need that your rear tyres don't burn too soon after violent tractions, so understeer on corner entry is a way to keep them colder and newer for more time.

    Understeer was normal on low speed corners, and also on fast corners due to low aerodynamic balance (balance under 50% figure means 'more to the front'). Here you will find some aero balance figures for Group C cars:
    http://www.mulsannescorner.com/data.html

    Article here (page 3):
    http://www.mulsannescorner.com/AllardJ2XRCE.pdf

    However, some tracks were especially hard for front tyres. Let's read what they said about Suzuka in 1991:
    "...they looked likely to fly off the track at any moment, and none of the settings that worked at Montreal, Monza or Richard seemed to be any good at Suzuka. The cars were harsh-sprung, lacked traction and understeered. "There are many opinions here about how to make the cars good," said Baldi, who is ever the diplomat these days."
    Source: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/may-1991/18/wsc-suzuka

    For tracks like Suzuka probably you can try with more front downforce, less rear wing, and also try more weight to the rear.
    Also take in account that server may run different 'real road' rubber than conditions you are running offline. A green track is much slower than a full rubbered track.



    >>>>>Will we have some more online servers with this mod soon ?

    There are some of them:
    https://www.racingfr.net/wbb/index....stone-mardi-5-mars-2019-20-30-23-55/&pageNo=1
    http://simracers4life.liveracers.com/Live?server=! SR4L Group C (V1.1)
    https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/mak-corp-91-group-c-salzburgring-thu-14-feb-2019.164546/

    Also some servers by prf.fr, IsR and other, you can search for them on rf2 launcher...
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  14. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    those different car bahaviors drove me nuts :)
    really interesting cars and so far at suzuka not really big understeer on default setup i notice
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Thanks for involvement and all those articles, @Raintyre

    I wanted to make one more raport. I entered same server today, only difference was that now it was just me in it. And physics/ffb felt great, I certainly had more control over the car, was more confident, precise and was faster. With default setup I already did 1'48'8, changing some things I did 1'46'8. It got difficult from there, but if I could manage to do good lap, I could probably reach flat 1'45 laptime. I don't think I was faster than 1'50 yesterday. Also I definitely got use of the front tires today, yesterday outside of my fronts stayed cold iiric, I remember I even tried reducing camber and it didn't help, today didn't need to touch wheels.

    I still think tires are not load sensitive enough. Not sure about lateral, but longitudinal mostly.

    I'm not one of those simracers who complain about existance of understeer, I understand that it is part of vehicle dynamics, and I know how to deal with it. But yesterday it was imposibly bad. Today it was believable. I also like my car to have forward mechanical grip balance, and rearwards aerodynamic balance, however, for matsusaka feels like both goes forward. Understeer still is there, but it is believable and logical. I push grip forward, until I can't handle the car. Slow turns benefits of slightly too much yaw moment, because helps to rotate, and with little steering corrections and throttle modulation exits aren't that slow, but if you are still understeering even on the exit it is annoying. Oversteer in highspeed corners are a bit too much, so it is better to have slight understeer there.

    I guess that for me amount of server clients could possibly have a hit on physics performance. Looking forward to find ODS Matsusaka server populated again.

    I also tried 787B for a few laps, and I think it is awesome too.
     
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  16. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    (A Bit Out Of Topic)

    i remember i had brake pedal gain at assetto corsa @1.90 !!!!,
    when i set it back to 1.0 which is the default, part of the understeer dissapear and game went back to normal when i use brake
    cause if signal distorts there is a chance to make braking unatural or unresponce
    and breaking can cause understeer
    just saying
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  17. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    i give up
    AI is ridiculous fast
    even at 85%
     
  18. tpw

    tpw Registered

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    Thanks Mak Corp for a great mod, the cars look and sound awesome and are a brutal drive that's for sure. But I agree with @mesfigas they are almost impossible to race against offline. The AI have seemingly unmatchable levels of grip and acceleration out of corners, and are 20+kmh faster than the player on the straight, regardless of how low I set the difficulty. It'd be nice if the AI could be adjusted so they fit better with the S397 "ecosystem". I can have a great race with most S397 content at AI difficulty 98, but get my arse handed to me by Group C cars at difficulty 80 on every track.
     
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  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    As a refference point I am normally +-1s pace of AI at 105. At Matsusaka with C11 I am more than 5s slower than them. Definitely a thing to look at if there will be a future update. Also that inside windscreen reflectivity iissue when wet. I know that in this s397 build there is this strange issue, but in other cars it does only reflect annoying on wet parts of the screen, but in this mod it reflects through whole screen. At night it is fine though :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  20. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    @mantasisg
    you are really fast :)
    @103% matsusaka i m like 20 seconds slower than AI :)
     

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