1974 Howston Dissenter Now Available!

Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by 88mphTim, Mar 24, 2016.

  1. Nitrometh

    Nitrometh Registered

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    What great cars. Absolutely in love with them. Let's mount some uglyhead superchargers on them and burn some rubber and nitro. :)

    Gesendet von meinem GT-I9301I mit Tapatalk
     
  2. schigara

    schigara Registered

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    Why does this car have an auto locking differential? Was it a requirement in Trans-Am racing back in the day?
     
  3. Promag

    Promag Registered

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    Do research on this. Detroit Locker - Automatic Lockers Became a standard in early 70's
     
  4. hammer666

    hammer666 Registered

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    @GFraser1965 . @David Wright

    Great replies guys, thanks very much.

    Interesting stuff David.
    Does that explain the odd numbers GFraser sees in the .pm?

    Not complaining about any of this by the way, it's a really interesting car, and if I learn something about it and racing back then, then all the better. :)
     
  5. Woodee

    Woodee Registered

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    What (already released) vehicle would be a good match up to this car?
     
  6. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    The Dissenter is a stockcar per the description, not really a TransAm participant for the period. Think AMC Matador coupe for inspiration which looks similar to the oft-referenced Ford Maverick... might also help explain the AMC-themed red-white-blue skin.

    '74-'80 era of TransAm looked more like this:

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Promag

    Promag Registered

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    Actually the Maverick was quite small like a pinto, vega, gremlin. considered the forerunners of the sub-compact.
     
  8. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    It was one size-class larger than that, equivalent to the Nova or Hornet.
     
  9. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    THANK YOU! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!...For not only releasing 3 different layouts but all 3 of those layouts also in reverse. You essentially have released 2 different circuits with 3 layouts each (rather than 1 circuit and 6 layouts) because driving a track in the opposite direction is literally like driving on a different track. Thank you! :)

    [HR][/HR]
    Regrding the car...It's OK. The car itself is great but, like every car in any iteration of pMotor, it falls victim to some long-time (15+ years) oddities of pMotor such as the following:

    - literally having to barely turn the wheel/tyres for the car to go around corners since things behave in an ultra-darty-front-end-and-direction-change as if there is no weight and/or momentum or something - Taking the Nascar cars around Indianapolis and using literally 1/5th or 1/6th the steering/tyre lock/angle as real-life, while still achieving very respectable laptimes (49s if I recall), is a great example of this. You just press some brake during entry, the front-end darts into the corner and the vehicle's direction of travel follows it almost immediately like there's no momentum to bleed off first.

    - Yes you're "technically" oversteering, however, the car barely has any slip-angle in relation to the vehicle's direction of travel; or, in other words, the vehicle's direction of travel is way, way too keen on following and travelling along the path where the front-end points to while the rear-end steps out which is completely opposite to real-life as-well as Live For Speed, Netkar Pro, KartKraft (you can easily see this within a few seconds of it's video - that's all that's needed), and to a certain extent Assetto Corsa.

    - When the car slides (especially the front) it's almost as if the tyres are hovering above the ground and have lost 90% of the weight pushing them to the ground, or, as if the friction between the tyres and surface has been reduced by 90%. It's a super-low-friction sllliiiddee rather than rubber, tarmac, and weight pressing on the ground during the slide (Assetto Corsa is a great example of this - try a low-grip road-car during front-end slip)



    Even when you're gripped and planted, the car/tyres want to always go over the limit so easily in pMotor unless you do a massively, massively slow lap. There is an over-super-sensitivity to the way cars go into slip situations. Even low grip cars can feel planted in real-life (despite having low total grip). This car (video above) is darting around and changing direction-of-travel like a 300 pound go-kart.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2016
  10. WhiteShadow

    WhiteShadow Registered

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    This link is working better :)
     
  11. ucfquattroguy

    ucfquattroguy Registered

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    Weird. I don't get any of that. These cars feel lazy and big to me. Using quite a bit of steering lock, actually, to get them to change direction.

    After lapping these, I immediately swapped to one of the Flat6 cup cars. Relatively speaking, *those* are responsive as heck and will change direction with not much steering input.

    What wheel lock settings are you using? I've got the 900deg rotation and 33deg lock (as per the auto-recognize for the car).
     
  12. hexagramme

    hexagramme Member

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    Yeah I agree, I don't get any kind of over-responsiveness in the Dissenter either.
    Quite the opposite, like you say, quite a lot of lock is needed.

    Also, the weight transfer feels, acts and responds amazingly realistic in this car.

    With some sensible throttle control, the car is stuck to the ground after the tires get up to temperature, but it will of course act out if you're too eager on the throttle on corner exit.
     
  13. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I either use the "auto-rocognize" of the car or, usually, even a slower steering rack to sort of "fakely" make up for the physics shortcomings/oddities. From the karts to GT3 Porsches to the Dissenter to Nascar cars and so on. In-fact, I even chose the very slowest steering rack in the Nascar tuning options and still could make it around indy with literally like 1/6th the steering lock of real-life by just dabbing some brake at the entry and mid-corner to make the car's direction of travel almost instantly change (as if there's no such thing as weight and/or forward momentum). Anyways, it's clearly visible in this car as-well all over that video of the new Dissenter @ Toban - literally almost every single corner.

    Maybe you don't get it but that video clearly shows it and it's repeatable x10000000 with any and every car and in complete contrast to real-life (as well as some other sims).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2016
  14. Christopher Elliott

    Christopher Elliott Administrator Staff Member

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    Take a break, you clearly just want to be inflammatory.
     
  15. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead Staff Member

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    Posting this same thing x10000000 along all threads for weeks, months and years, its not gonna make it "repeatable", just utterly boring.

    Indeed take a break.
     
  16. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    To clear up the build notification: B1068 and later contain a correlation improvement for AI physics, so they can use more human like damping values. It's by no means a requirement for the car, but could affect the AI using it.
     
  17. Promag

    Promag Registered

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    It was really in between them in the mid 70's, the vega class was around 97" wheelbase, the Maverick 103" and the nova class was 111". I drove in the back seat of a Mav from Detroit to Florida, trust me they are small LOL. The body was a full foot shorter than a Nova. Most Mavericks came with sixes. I know they made some v8 muscle but I have never even seen one. Really rare.
     
  18. Kelju_K

    Kelju_K Registered

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    This.

    And Spinelli, you dont seem to grasp that having a quick car arourd the track and having a car that is easily driftable are opposites of each other.

    The weight transfer in a quick car, follows the pace of going thru the corner. In other words, if you go quickly (not speed) thru the corner the weight must transfer to the out side tires, and back quickly. You open the throttle as the weight starts to come back to center, and if you want a good laptime, you better be at the apex on that moment.

    In a Drifting, the weight must transfer to the outside tires rather quicly, BUT return slowly, AND you open the throttle while the weight is still on the outside tires, inceasing gradually to keep the weight on the outside. That is why to drift, you "flick" the weight early to the side and let it slide thru the corner.

    So if you want to drift make rebound higher in the rear and maybe raise the rideheight in the front a bit. It's fun, but you wont be that quick that way, and you cook your tires in a lap or two.

    You cant have it both ways buddy.
     
  19. hexagramme

    hexagramme Member

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    I have to be quite "violent" with the throttle to make the rear end step out (which is a lot of fun sometimes).

    But if my mindset is set to "sensible and fast driving" the throttle does require some feathering at times.
    It also requires me to not enter corners too fast, messing up the car balance on exit, where the rear end will typical try to overtake the front end on throttle application.
    This is a fun challenge too, because these brakes... they take some getting used to. ;)

    If anyone wants a fun challenge, take this car to Bathurst, make sure the gearing allows you to only just touch the rev limiter right before the Chase (~275 kph).
    Oh dear... One of the gnarliest braking zones you'll ever try in rF2, I'm sure. :D
     
  20. Kelju_K

    Kelju_K Registered

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    I agree on feathering the throttle, you gotta be very active with the pedal, and "feel it" as you go.

    Now for the ones that feel that cars like these are too slippery:

    I know that "feeling" the weight transfer is one of the biggest challenges in simulation vs real life.

    When you are cornering in a real car, you know by instinct that the correct moment to start to apply more throttle, is the moment the weight starts to move back towards the center of the car. You dont have to think about it. It comes naturally to you without having to give it any tought.

    Now, while in real life it is quite easy to avoid mistakes like opening the throttle while your weight is still fully on the outside tires (which you know leads to the rear to step out suddenly), you cannot avoid making these kind of mistakes in a simulator sometimes. Not even after years of practice really.

    In sims, it's very hard to get proper feeling of the weight transfer and other physical forces at play. And since your brain has learned to rely on feeling all that irl, the sim cars feel unpredictable.

    To be able to drive an accurately modelled sim car well, your brain is going to have to learn an additional way of "seeing" things, on top of what comes naturally to you. It takes time, there's no way around it. That's why people get similar thoughts about the cars as Spinelli and Joe and few others do that i've noticed. It doesn't mean that you are a bad driver, OR that thre is something wrong with the car. It just means that you are still in the process of learning to feel everything that is going on with the car in a simulated world.

    I have had guys at my place to play sims as a tradition for years, and i have had quests that are pro and semipro irl, and they all struggle with this among other simulation challenges versus real life.

    Dont be too hard on your self, and separate your real life driving ego from your sim driving ego. That is the fastest way to get progress in this matter.

    Finally my 2 most important rules for my self are:

    1 dont take your eyes of the line.
    2 dont rush it.

    Hope this helps the newbies atleast. Peace!

    Kel
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2016

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