[REL] 1957/1958 Vanwall VW5 + 1957 Maserati 250F T2

Few words on Vanwall and Tony Vandervell.

I think it could be said that Tony Vandervell was the catalyst of British motorsport as well as rapid evolution of Formula One in 1956-1959. One of the first BRM financial backers, later decided to work on his dream to drive British motorsport to victories himself. He studied itialian cars at first, racing and modifying Ferraris as Thinwall cars. He employed specialists like Colin Chapman of Lotus, Frank Costin, Owen Maddock from Cooper. I think these job opportunities could have been major acceleration for Lotus and Cooper developing their own racing programmes. Cooper would win first two races already by 1958, the year Vanwall took first munufacturers championship, and Moss barely didn't become a champion. Next year Vanwall would start fading away and Cooper would dominate, and Lotus would start to dominate in early 60s. Although not associated, perhaps following successes, soon Eric Broadley with Lola would emerge, further cementing British motorsports on the top.

British tires also would become dominant in late 50s. Dunlop R5 was big improvement after R4. Could it also be in someway associated with Vanwall, I don't know. But knowing how Tony Vandervell pursued to use anything best possible on VW chassies, it would make sense if there could have been a push for improved tires.

Vandervell wasn't focused on just British designs. He used help from Porsche for transmissions, they would have used Pirelli tires if they were better, but it turned out that Dunlops were better in wet, while Pirellis were slightly better in dry. When Vandervell learned about Maserati new smaller gearbox he immediately pursued to get one. I get a picture, that as a manager of Vanwall he was no less on the limit than his drivers would be on the track.

Vanwall VW1-11 cars were surely amazing. Considering they had two big flaws - larger in size and with seat position 20centimeters too high. They still managed to compensate and lacked no speed against the competition, and were mostly quicker.

I think Tony Vandervell was a bit like Henry Ford II the way he stirred things up.
 
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I think I have released the car. There was a little delay again, due windshield being too bright. Later discovered that Cooper has same issue. Can't wait to update Cooper soon too.

Vanwall is off to go
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I hope you'll enjoy: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3557059235

Maserati 250F comes in
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Top and Best looking history vehicle mod so far in RF2, amazing job with the graphics and materials. Very challenging to drive as usual, had some nice casual cruising on old tracks, feels great!
 
Thank you :)

Have to appreciate the fantastic model by Mexes. It is not even highest detail level, that would be too much. Perhaps would be nice to do a little modification and add short nose fully exposed radiator version that they used in Monaco. Front alloy wheel as a graphical update too.

The materials is getting easy thanks for your help and work put into previous cars now materials are mostly solved, just still needs minor adjustments of course, and attention to textures. Mexes textures are very good, so that also didn't require much.

Most work is on physics. I haven't mentioned anywhere but some tracks will benefit lower rear roll center upgrades option. It is not necessary for most tracks. But I have encountered some tracks in which more rear end softness for roll is greatly beneficial. Also I rarely use default setup, usually soften rear end a bit. Like all cars it requires little bit getting used to.

One advice for how to drive Vanwall VW. Try to induce understeer on the turn in to the mid apex. And then gentle throttle steering to help with rotation. Gentle throttle steer can be done, but have to be prepared for fast oversteer and react to it quickly. Don't over correct and strighten steering in time to avoid destabilization and tank slappers - as usual with most cars, just little bit faster with this car, less fast than with D50.

Not the easiest car to drive. Easier than D50. Harder than 250F.
 
I tested the car on the new Zolder track in wet and dry conditions, the physics seem believable, good ffb
great car details, great work, thank you very much
 
Please drive. ;) Also it is important how you do it guys. I know there is a sea of content and many simualtions ,plus other non-simulation games of cars, and then there are other games and then there is, and then.... eitherway, if you take cars for ten minute spins, you will never know differences between good and band, they all will look the same, because you will not experience it. I know it happens extremely often. I don't adress this to anybody personaly.

I am not naive. It is rF2 with few people playing, and it is 50s car with fewer people ever having an interest. many people thinks these cars are crap because they are old and can't pull 23g cornering and accelerate to 120mph in -0.2s. I still believe there are ~three people driving my cars from time to time regularly, and they are having really good time. Because there aren't 50s cars this good anywhere else in simracing (at least not to my knowledge), and these cars are actually how they have been at the time, they were this good already in 50s. And W125 was this good already in 30s. People were smart then, believe it or not.

Most content of these years I find in simracing either perform like they were driving like Flinstones car, or they drive or perform like Lola T70. Everyone can have what they likes though, it is freedom.
 
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I think the 50s formula cars are interesting because of their challenging driving, especially in the rain, which makes me think if some modder made a mod of some regular, non-racing car with the most accurate physics possible, which could compare the driving characteristics to a racing car.
 
Tehse old cars are actually easy in rain. But I guess depends on person what he/she is best at handling, also what you are used to at the moment means something. As some cars seem difficult, till you do five warmup laps increasingly fast tryign your best to stay under situations that you can control. There are multiple arguments why these cars are easy in rain mai none is that they don't have very high peak grip, they do have skinny tires, they aren't crazy powerful. Well W125 is though, it is not that hard in the rain, because tires aren't wide and very peaky.

I can't understand what you wrote there about comparing race car to non-racecar. Did you mean some regular car should drive like racing car ? If regular car would drive like racing car, something would have to be done to it, which would make it not regular anymore. However, my Toyota Auris probably would drive bit like racing car of 50s if it was half its size and weight, and had double of power it has. Also would have to be RWD :D

Most accurate physics possible of some car might be made some day. And almost certainly a lot of people will disagree and complain about whatever thing they will find off in their incredibly responsible and concentrated test drive of five minutes. And they will say something like "it is not like it is in my favorite simulation".
 
Once I wanted to do my Opel Omega same way, I think that car had great feel. In simulation I would have given it more power, reduced weight, given better diff...

Congrats to that guy on his Alfa, looks good.

People still read articles there ? They are always so dry and without meaning. They never ever write anything with weight. Even this one is probably boring circular article as they always do. I think it was better when guys like Jeffrey were there.

Is there even a single site where good articles are writen about simracing related stuff ? I don't know one.

I once got article there on my car already, it was my first car - XJ13. I must have to mention that I never asked them to promote me then, and it probably was one of first times modder got some article like that there, and I wasn't really worthy of it, model wasn't that good, the sound that one guy made wasn't that good at all, physics although as usual by aphidgod were good but it also was one of his first projects, those wern't also the top level, although for AC probably they were fine... There was one awesome guy who was inspired to make a cool montage video showing the car. It was his great effort and it was his idea to have an article published. I think an interview was considered but never happened. LOL right now they would probably like to ban me, and they will one day. I feel so unloved everywhere. Yet I made these awesome cars and share them, not to mention few tracks as well...

I think it was my mistake to allow that article to happen. Some people got it wrong way, I think. And also I suppose it has elevated the expectations for that mod, because when I made final or close to final version on which I worked incredibly hard, it got lots of hate. It was an ugly time for me.

I think I am one of least favorite persons in simracing anyway, a lot of people dislike me because I speak truth and I think I might have had a disagreement pretty much with every single person LOL Some people understand that it is normal to discuss and argue, some people hunt you online forever. For single disagreement. I have met all kinds of people. There are unbelievable people in both sides - beautiful and ugly.

The worst of the worst are people who are polite in your face and wear fake smiles, and then betray you and disasociate as soon as you are slightly uncomfortable, or not useful anymore. In online world when you don't meet face to face, it is even more likely to happen.

I have zero, completely zero expectation of any article or any kind of endorsement from pretty much anywhere apart few honorable persons that exist here and there telling a nice word for me. One of the posts I have made earlier in the thread where I pretended to be getting lots of offers and attention was for laughs.

You know, I would say Mexes would deserve an article for how great his models are and how generously he shared them. I haven't tried them in AC, but I wonder if they got justice. AC though can't really simulate these cars well, it is best at stiff chassis slick tires cars.

I have to continue on 250F and update Cooper...
 
mantasisg said:
Tehse old cars are actually easy in rain. But I guess depends on person what he/she is best at handling, also what you are used to at the moment means something. As some cars seem difficult, till you do five warmup laps increasingly fast tryign your best to stay under situations that you can control. There are multiple arguments why these cars are easy in rain mai none is that they don't have very high peak grip, they do have skinny tires, they aren't crazy powerful. Well W125 is though, it is not that hard in the rain, because tires aren't wide and very peaky.

I can't understand what you wrote there about comparing race car to non-racecar. Did you mean some regular car should drive like racing car ? If regular car would drive like racing car, something would have to be done to it, which would make it not regular anymore. However, my Toyota Auris probably would drive bit like racing car of 50s if it was half its size and weight, and had double of power it has. Also would have to be RWD :D

Most accurate physics possible of some car might be made some day. And almost certainly a lot of people will disagree and complain about whatever thing they will find off in their incredibly responsible and concentrated test drive of five minutes. And they will say something like "it is not like it is in my favorite simulation".
Click to expand...
I mean, only a few people have experience with a real racing car, except for kart cars, so it's not possible to compare your own experience to the simulation. Having driven a racing kart myself, I get a completely different perspective between the simulation and the real driving experience.
 
@
mantasisg said:
Once I wanted to do my Opel Omega same way, I think that car had great feel. In simulation I would have given it more power, reduced weight, given better diff...

Congrats to that guy on his Alfa, looks good.

People still read articles there ? They are always so dry and without meaning. They never ever write anything with weight. Even this one is probably boring circular article as they always do. I think it was better when guys like Jeffrey were there.

Is there even a single site where good articles are writen about simracing related stuff ? I don't know one.

I once got article there on my car already, it was my first car - XJ13. I must have to mention that I never asked them to promote me then, and it probably was one of first times modder got some article like that there, and I wasn't really worthy of it, model wasn't that good, the sound that one guy made wasn't that good at all, physics although as usual by aphidgod were good but it also was one of his first projects, those wern't also the top level, although for AC probably they were fine... There was one awesome guy who was inspired to make a cool montage video showing the car. It was his great effort and it was his idea to have an article published. I think an interview was considered but never happened. LOL right now they would probably like to ban me, and they will one day. I feel so unloved everywhere. Yet I made these awesome cars and share them, not to mention few tracks as well...

I think it was my mistake to allow that article to happen. Some people got it wrong way, I think. And also I suppose it has elevated the expectations for that mod, because when I made final or close to final version on which I worked incredibly hard, it got lots of hate. It was an ugly time for me.

I think I am one of least favorite persons in simracing anyway, a lot of people dislike me because I speak truth and I think I might have had a disagreement pretty much with every single person LOL Some people understand that it is normal to discuss and argue, some people hunt you online forever. For single disagreement. I have met all kinds of people. There are unbelievable people in both sides - beautiful and ugly.

The worst of the worst are people who are polite in your face and wear fake smiles, and then betray you and disasociate as soon as you are slightly uncomfortable, or not useful anymore. In online world when you don't meet face to face, it is even more likely to happen.

I have zero, completely zero expectation of any article or any kind of endorsement from pretty much anywhere apart few honorable persons that exist here and there telling a nice word for me. One of the posts I have made earlier in the thread where I pretended to be getting lots of offers and attention was for laughs.

You know, I would say Mexes would deserve an article for how great his models are and how generously he shared them. I haven't tried them in AC, but I wonder if they got justice. AC though can't really simulate these cars well, it is best at stiff chassis slick tires cars.

I have to continue on 250F and update Cooper...
Click to expand...

In one of your posts, I think on this thread but I'm not sure, you say that you think that just 3 people use your cars regularly, and that almost all rFactor 2 users don't care at all.

I'm 99% sure that this is absolutely not the case, and that it's not three people who happily use your cars as much as they can, but at the very least 10 and even then I say that like that, it's undoubtedly more.

Anyway, as you know, in this world, noble and high quality things are almost always loved by a very small number of people in proportion...

Music, cinema, gastronomy (yum McDo).

So it's not a criterion if actually few people use your cars, what matters is all the pleasure you give them and all the passion you have to make these cars and the users to use them.

Besides, I'm not going to do it because I don't really want to waste time making a screenshot, so you have to take my word for it :

ALL the cars I have installed on my hard drive from modding on rFactor 2 are YOUR cars... (Only).

There are literally more than 100 different cars represented on the workshop, and yet, I only have yours installed... that says something !

The more popular simracing becomes, the smaller the proportion of true enthusiasts whose ultimate goal is to have an ultra-realistic and as varied driving experience as possible on the most interesting circuits.

In this respect, the beginnings of rFactor 2 and this old era were in my opinion better in this sense.

In any case, I am extremely delighted with your cars, I love them, I wish you good luck in this process of modding cars on rFactor 2 and above all good health and good moral.

It's never easy being a rare bird in this brutal world.
 
mjo1704 said:
I mean, only a few people have experience with a real racing car, except for kart cars, so it's not possible to compare your own experience to the simulation. Having driven a racing kart myself, I get a completely different perspective between the simulation and the real driving experience.
Click to expand...

Yes, but we have to use what we can. In this case out of car body experience LOL People can look at videos, look at pictures, can read about the car how it was. Possible to gather so much without driving it. . Everyone is enthusiastic about slightly different thing, it is rare to meet someone who is aiming to understand the car for real.

Even some very fast guys, who also might be driving cars for real. Many of them are just having fun and either car works or not for them. They don't really understand what is happening, and can drive perfectly well anyway. They might sometimes act like they know, and yo uwill believe because they handle car so well, but they don't know, maybe just understand few basic key things. Not without a reason there is so rarely someone speaking up about their real car versus simulation experience. And if they do, it is always revealing that it is not so easy to do. Almost all of them will struggle to even have ideas what causes that little something that is not right. But I think it is great if people driven real cars try to compare. A lot of people who are spoiled to have real driving like we do in simulation, aren't really so much interested in simulation anymore.

I guess the same way I am not so interested in Assetto Corsa after learning how beautiful physics of rF2 can be.

In short. I think comparing real car to simulation alone requires great understanding of vehicle dynamics, which not so many people have.

One of biggest problems in simracing is that people doesn't really talk about cars anymore. Not even about setups. Sometimes the absolute realism which YOU are looking for is not in default setup while physics foundation parameters are roughly correct.
 
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@pilAUTO Thanks, yo uwere one of them when I was thinking about three people. There might be ten, I don't know :D I have always been a little worried about that, but at the same time, I just want to express that I am aware of situation, and that it is ok with me.

There definitely is some more good mod cars. Few of them, I think, could be 3x better with small tweaks done. And I haven't tried al lof them, in fact I have not tried many yet.

"Anyway, as you know, in this world, noble and high quality things are almost always loved by a very small number of people in proportion..."

That is very true. Cinema and music are perfect examples. Architecture too. Maybe because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and these days things has to be done as cheap as possible while pleasing as many as possible people, they inevitably end up being averaged in a way they become as much beautiful as they are ugly. Much like BoP in GT3 racing - the idea to make everyone equally unhappy, so then it is fair :D

I have spoken with people who are doing some things that involves designing, with some sort of art in it. It is very common people are just as "WOW" at something that has been done in two hours, as they go "WOW" at something that has been in works for a week.

Still, I think people who can achieve true beauty, should never stop as long as they are able to create.
 
mantasisg said:
Yes, but we have to use what we can. In this case out of car body experience LOL People can look at videos, look at pictures, can read about the car how it was. Possible to gather so much without driving it. . Everyone is enthusiastic about slightly different thing, it is rare to meet someone who is aiming to understand the car for real.

Even some very fast guys, who also might be driving cars for real. Many of them are just having fun and either car works or not for them. They don't really understand what is happening, and can drive perfectly well anyway. They might sometimes act like they know, and yo uwill believe because they handle car so well, but they don't know, maybe just understand few basic key things. Not without a reason there is so rarely someone speaking up about their real car versus simulation experience. And if they do, it is always revealing that it is not so easy to do. Almost all of them will struggle to even have ideas what causes that little something that is not right. But I think it is great if people driven real cars try to compare. A lot of people who are spoiled to have real driving like we do in simulation, aren't really so much interested in simulation anymore.

I guess the same way I am not so interested in Assetto Corsa after learning how beautiful physics of rF2 can be.

In short. I think comparing real car to simulation alone requires great understanding of vehicle dynamics, which not so many people have.

One of biggest problems in simracing is that people doesn't really talk about cars anymore. Not even about setups. Sometimes the absolute realism which YOU are looking for is not in default setup while physics foundation parameters are roughly correct.
Click to expand...
thanks for the reply, is telemetry data from racing cars used in the simulation implementation, e.g. rf2? it would be great if there was an rf2 simulation of my own car
 
Without your help I have decided chassis 2529 must be THE ONE. Easy decision.


@mjo1704 Everything is used what can be used. You can just start doing it if you want it very much.
 
@mantasisg - I finally got to around to driving the Vanwall, so far only on original tires. Nice physics work!

I feel the cockpit mirrors would benefit from remapping. The virtual mirrors are angled too much towards the sky and, if you're trying to use only the cockpit mirrors they're too zoomed in to be useful. As the real drivers weren't restrained in their open cockpits, they wouldn't use the mirrors to see cars on either side because they could just turn their heads, but they'd watch in the mirrors cars approaching from behind. So my thoughts are, after adjusting the virtual mirror angle, then map the cockpit side mirrors from the central mirror rather than trying to use the virtual side mirrors for the mapping.
 
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