[REL] 1955-1956 Lancia-Ferrari D50

@mantasisg - that 0.79 update has changed driving this amazing vehicle so much more fun. Feels way more stable@Belgium and both tires work well and the AWD model is super fast. Not sure if I'll ever get a 4:35 lap. Haven't had to pull any more hair out trying to micro adjust the setup(s). Major kudos m, both to all your efforts and the results
 
I am glad you like it. I was thinking if I haven't lost little of the good excting side with these minor changes. And was considering to roll back it just slightly, if I ever update it again (probably will never do it).

Keep on pushing. I think this car should get under 4'10 at SPA, but I don't know which Layout you used. And of course if you used AWD, it is slower.
 
So this just happened....

https://www.instagram.com/p/DNYbTyfR9I-/

Any thoughts ?

Wonderful to finally have proper full lap video of this car, nicely driven pretty much on the limit or close to it, and with beautiful sound.

I think this particular car carries original engine and transaxle, source: https://museum.revsinstitute.org/the-collection/1955-lancia-d50/

It seems like it hold specs close to how it would have been in 1955. Doesn't look like it is more powerful, or that tires are grippier. And this lap was about 1'48, I just did under 1'47 with my simulated version on Engleberts - less grippy and more sliding permitting tire. My simulated D50 is more nervous, although I am sure with some particular setup tweaks, and with tires wearing down 80-90% it probably would be a little more like it.

In a video slides are subtle, but some of them were bolder, and lasted, smooth in and ot the slides. Must not ignore that driver is very good.

I did blasting 1'40 with "modern historics" version. Setuped to be more predictable for slides, and with tires worn under 85% it was getting there in terms of how smoothly it could powerslide out of turns. Still tires were a little too eager too come snap back into grip, and were slightly too quick to snap off the slides.

It might be that I'll revise modern historics version a little, so it is little less powerful, and I would probably reduce tires peak grip a little, and soften them a little bit, that would definitely make them smoother towards to how it was seen in video. I think they are especially more permitting, perhaps I would say less grippy too at lower speeds.

I am convinced that they did use most predictable tires available for this car, and they were probably worn. On the other hand perhaps they were actually fresh and it was qualification lap or similar.

I think my D50 is about correct in terms of pace, because it ties reasonably well with recorded laptimes of the real grand prix events. I am not sure about modern historics version.

Last but not least that V8 sound is so good, and sound changes perception of car handling. Perhaps I will try again to do sound, after very annoying misfortune with weirdest rF2 bug ever, when I actually did sound already, tested it and it worked pretty good, only not to work anymore later in the day, for no obvious reason. It was traumatizing trying to solve that issue for whole week with no results.
 
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mantasisg said:
So this just happened....

https://www.instagram.com/p/DNYbTyfR9I-/

Any thoughts ?

Wonderful to finally have proper full lap video of this car, nicely driven pretty much on the limit or close to it, and with beautiful sound.

I think this particular car carries original engine and transaxle, source: https://museum.revsinstitute.org/the-collection/1955-lancia-d50/

It seems like it hold specs close to how it would have been in 1955. Doesn't look like it is more powerful, or that tires are grippier. And this lap was about 1'48, I just did under 1'47 with my simulated version on Engleberts - less grippy and more sliding permitting tire. My simulated D50 is more nervous, although I am sure with some particular setup tweaks, and with tires wearing down 80-90% it probably would be a little more like it.

In a video slides are subtle, but some of them were bolder, and lasted, smooth in and ot the slides. Must not ignore that driver is very good.

I did blasting 1'40 with "modern historics" version. Setuped to be more predictable for slides, and with tires worn under 85% it was getting there in terms of how smoothly it could powerslide out of turns. Still tires were a little too eager too come snap back into grip, and were slightly too quick to snap off the slides.

It might be that I'll revise modern historics version a little, so it is little less powerful, and I would probably reduce tires peak grip a little, and soften them a little bit, that would definitely make them smoother towards to how it was seen in video. I think they are especially more permitting, perhaps I would say less grippy too at lower speeds.

I am convinced that they did use most predictable tires available for this car, and they were probably worn. On the other hand perhaps they were actually fresh and it was qualification lap or similar.

I think my D50 is about correct in terms of pace, because it ties reasonably well with recorded laptimes of the real grand prix events. I am not sure about modern historics version.

Last but not least that V8 sound is so good, and sound changes perception of car handling. Perhaps I will try again to do sound, after very annoying misfortune with weirdest rF2 bug ever, when I actually did sound already, tested it and it worked pretty good, only not to work anymore later in the day, for no obvious reason. It was traumatizing trying to solve that issue for whole week with no results.
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Even if 'period correct' in most elements, I imagine that tyres are benefiting from some modern little bits here and there to provide a safety margin to what would be an exact replica tyre, no?
 
vava74 said:
Even if 'period correct' in most elements, I imagine that tyres are benefiting from some modern little bits here and there to provide a safety margin to what would be an exact replica tyre, no?
Click to expand...

I don't know, but I think most of the historic tires used are closest to something that would have been used in early to mid sixties. I assume that they are all certainly better than anything was before in terms of materials used. I think they all must be more durable and reliable thats the first thing. Probably they could achieve lower grip levels, by just using harder rubber compounds. And by doing that handling should theoretically become more predictable. I think all tires the harder the compound goes, the less load sensitivity they have, and the less difference is there between sliding and static friction, although total grip is definitely lower then. Would be interesting to read/hear about these things from actual tire designers, can only guess and use logic now.

If I was running these cars today, and aiming to get them on the limit, I would probably prefer tires that aren't necessarily amazing at performance, but they are rather behaving well. This way these cars remain closer to what they were at their time, and driving them must be much less risky then. Although, I think in their time period they probably did use as soft compound as they could just to cover whole Grand Prix distance. Besides that, I think many of the historic cars would handle absolutely awful with very high performance tires, a lot of chassies would probably bend lol

Maybe silly opinion, but I don't think that tires even evolved much from sixties. I think they do perhaps use better stronger/lighter materials up to a degree, something has had to become better certainly. Perhaps there are much more improvements for regular civil tires, than for high end sports/racing tires. A lot of "epic" tires these days doesn't seem to last a very long time, a lot of their "capabilities" are achieved by just going softer and wider. Sacrificing longevity and mass ? Also they build tires that are only doing great in some tiny window of temperature, and amounts of slip, road also has to be smooth and so on... If it gets wet tire looses way too much of performance. I think these days tire constructors just have more control over what exactly they want to achieve, and they can optimise better, but wouldn't necessarily build all around universal tire that much better than in sixties. Perhaps could do it much easier... I am just speculating.

The old racing tires. I would say from 1955 to 1967. Good for hot, and cold. Can be driven on dry and wet. Any asphalt. Doesn't need to be changed for a long time, and they can be abused relatively much. Maybe they just didn't have that much peak performance.

It is a good question IMO about how much of all these qualities can be retained, while applying all the technological improvements made ever since 70s. I wouldn't be surprised if thats some of best available simple passenger car tires, just if they got build by using some fancier lighter materials.
 
I had the priviledge to see the late Peter Giddings drive his D50 at Thunderhill in northern California several years ago. I've got a few photos, but no video as I recall.
http://www.petergiddings.com/Cars/LanciaD50.html
He brought all his priceless race cars to the track on an open flat bed trailer pulled by his cab over truck, with his wife and dog. You may be able to find more documents and video with some searching. Hope this helps.
 
Just making a post here to tell that mod has been updated to version 0.81. Unfortunately still no rivets on car, and I have not yet managed to make the sound I made to work again after it just stopped working for impossible to understand reason.

There are only physics tweaks, mostly making car more forgiving. It was achieved by increasing chassis stiffness, increasing critical damping of torsional flex to be more in tune with tires and suspension (although usually suspension are set to be in tune with the chassis lol), reduced ~10% load sensitivity of default tires, slight default setup tweaks.

Besides, I also included tire that would be somewhat replicating how 1954 Pirelli Biancas would have been, it is slowest and possibly easiest tire to handle. Also there is now 1957 Stelvio tire straight from my 250F T2 which you can get from my discord, this tire is reasonably easy to handle, and road holding is best, it makes this car competitive against 1957/1958 F1 cars.

This car keeps on amazing me how much mechanical static grip it can extract from tires. On the other hand 250F amazes me how fast it can be while not being able to extract nearly as much mechanical static grip.

And Modern Historic car got its realtime section of tires changed to be like in others.
 
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Thanks for you continuous work on these great machines! It's F175 this year, and these 50's cars deserve the celebration. It seems that none of the sim racing titles felt the need to celebrate this illustrious anniversary of the biggest auto racing series. Not even Reiza. It is really a shame. So big thanks and respect to you. I am, at least, very grateful for all of this.
 
Corgan said:
Thanks for you continuous work on these great machines! It's F175 this year, and these 50's cars deserve the celebration. It seems that none of the sim racing titles felt the need to celebrate this illustrious anniversary of the biggest auto racing series. Not even Reiza. It is really a shame. So big thanks and respect to you. I am, at least, very grateful for all of this.
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Thank you for nice words.

People has a lot of misunderstanding how incredible 50s were. They usually think that they were all crap, very bad grip, everything is very bad. And maybe it is when you put it next to some car with super glue super wide tires that wears off 15 minutes, with downforce of an elephant (and worse drag than an elephant), and as big as an elephant, but yet stops from 200 to zero in 50 meters. But is it the fundamental joy of driving to be able to hit most g's possible ? I don't think it is. And even technologically, whats the point if it is done by cheating - to me tires that has no life in them, and aerodynamcis that induces drag greater than of a brick and then tracks gets redesigned to cut off top speeds dynamics is cheating.

50s and 60s cars ARE MORE DYNAMIC. They hit high top speeds. They need to slow down more, then they have to accelerate more. There is more of every way of slip. There are more angles to steer. You are traction control and anti lock brakes system. Suspension has travel...

But these car had grip, they had top speeds. These cars had feel and nimbleness. Most importantly there were beauty and poetry about them, the way they drove. And I would argue that a lot about them were better and more efficient than in moder race cars.

It doesn't help that a lot of people into these cars, tends to choose bad content. Not simulating them well at all. All of that sabotages these beautiful creations. And as a result not even Reiza....
 
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I agree, before 1968 the formula cars were without wings and without downforce and the grip was only on the tires and that makes driving interesting that's why I usually drive old formula cars
as long as the physics are well implemented like your cars are.
it would be nice to get a good formula ford mod from the newer formula cars
because they didn't have wings and they skidded in corners and you had to recognize the limits of skidding
 
Downforce is not a bad thing, if it isn't achieved by inducing stupid amounts of drag.

And aerodynamic lift is not that bad as long as it is not too imbalanced and not too huge. The days when they cared mostly about low drag, and didn't care as much about not having downforce were days of best looking cars.
 
Just found this site and am very impressed by the model you have created for the sim community. I just started Assetto Corsa a week ago and I hope there's a D50 there for me. I am from that era in real life and have a great fondness for most cars that were around but top of my list are the Lancia, the Maserati 250F and the W196 Mercedes. In my youth Fangio and Portago were my heroes. These days I just hand fabricate scratch built models of these very cars and as I said earlier I am trying to learn to "drive" these machines in the sim world. It's the next best thing! Again, congratulations on your very realistic creation.

PS I don't know if it would have helped but I have photos from the Revs Institute of the front and rear suspension that they took for me when I was building my model.
 
Thank you, I appreciate the message. It is great that someone who knows the model very well, finds it well made. It is not finished, could be smoothed, still detailed some more, such as with rivets. But I decided it is good to be shared as it is now.

I also have 250F in here, if you would be interested: https://discord.gg/De3BTdywNH

W196 is on my wishlist as well for someday, open wheels version, we will see how time and other possibilities will allign.

I remember listening one audio tape about how Rudolf Uhlenhaut was testing Mercedes W25, to learn what was wrong that he had to improve for W125. He started driving around Nurburgring at normal street car speeds, gradually increasing speed every lap till he started driving close to the limits. In the sim too this is the very best way to get started with any car, especially more genuinely simulated. I hope you are doing this very same approach, to maximise the experience and immersion. And I hope you have good time.

It is impressive that you build models of these cars, has to be very invloving and interesting thing to do. I did find quite a few of good pictures of D50 suspension, but anything good on top of that wouldn't hurt.
 
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I did find the 250F in Assetto and have been driving it a lot. My own D50 model can be seen here and my 250F is here.
I'm new to AC but used to be very active in Grand Prix Legends so I'm reasonably quick (for my age!) but AC I find is very different handling to GPL.
Anyway, I appreciate people like yourself taking the time to develop fun cars for us to drive.
Re: the Revs pictures: I'm happy to share them but I don't know how they'd feel about me posting them here. Is there a way to contact you directly and I'll email them.
 
These models looks very realistic in my view, I have spent quite some time trying to understand lines of each. Most importantly they are made with love. I have no idea how much time it could have taken. For me working with 3D I can alter shapes in every way, and I have modifier tools for help such as mirror tool, a lot less difficult. Good thing for you is that you are 100 an owner of your models, mine are out there, but they exist to house physics, the handling.

Although, I am probably mistaking something, these are created with initial computer 3D modeling ? Maybe it wouldn't even be possible to get such results otherwise.

Good thing these cars were all slightly different from chassis to chassis, so the margins are not as tight in some areas.

AC has its own thing the way cars drive. It is down to simulation engine and the way cars are built too. It is good simulation. Its physics doesn't have some of most essential effects in chassis and tires simulation, but it is still good. Good enough for most people. But there is better to be had.

On the pictures. I don't need them, because I am not planning to remodel graphics, or physical chassis suspension geometry. But I would still be interested to see. If you can't share these pictures, then I'll understand. Revs D50 is very well made version of D50. I can be contacted personally through personal messages function in here, or personal messages in Discord. Discord is hell, but hey, 90% of internet is in 2025, what can we do...

I just realized I have visited this through google images, when I was researching some details abut 250F: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums...f-scratch-build/&tab=comments#comment-2838334

P.S. wow ! https://www.britmodeller.com/forums...92-scratchbuilt-ferrari-375mm-another-woodie/
and
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums...y-scratch-build/&tab=comments#comment-2794121

These boosts up morale, beautiful art.
 
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