[REL] 1954 Endurance Sports Cars (modded Cobra) [v1300 2022-08-04]

Discussion in 'Vehicles' started by woochoo, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. Pawgy7

    Pawgy7 Registered

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    Beautiful cars but they need some more 1954 cars to compete aginst. Thanks loads but Ferraris, Cunninghams, Austin Martins and D Jags would be great. Just racing aginst One of a kind is OK but would be much more fun with a varied field.
     
  2. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    Yes, i did have the idea to modify the bodywork to hint at those types of cars, but in the end it didn't happen.
    Would love to see some licensed content for these, but i doubt there is enough interest from customers to justify the fees, and then the work-hours to make them
     
  3. Ned52

    Ned52 Registered

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    There was a mod for rF1 with Ferrari 250 GTO,AC Cobra 427 and Alfa Romeo GTZ.
     
  4. Pawgy7

    Pawgy7 Registered

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    Yes but RF1 is great but not RF2 and a conversion is probably not the best.
     
  5. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    I_Bellett, bwana and John like this.
  6. KittX

    KittX Registered

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    woochoo, do you happen to have a template for the cobras? I'd like to paint a few historic skins myself.

    I'd love if S397 consider adding another 1-2 cars to each Howston and Cobra, to make them a series with varied cars. And make a race version of Cobra, with various little changes in rollcage, windshields or visors... The cobra as it is just has no competition, and feels like it has no purpose in the sim.
     
  7. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  8. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

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    The Cobras were great value for money at the Goodwood Members Meeting yesterday. Sub-zero temperatures and snow meant they were twitching and struggling for grip all the way from the chicane to their braking point - which was shortly after the finish line :) Prize for "Cojones of the Day" though has to go to the F5000 drivers on slicks in the falling snow!
     
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  9. KittX

    KittX Registered

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    Thanks woochoo!
     
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  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    The situation with Cobras is ironical, official big block 427 car is too slow, and this modded 289 car is too fast. I have nothing against this Cobra being modified as it represent entirely different car, and does not replace original content. But correct pace is the basic thing to follow in terms of car physics, and I am a fan of authentic physics. So please accept me.

    Car might not be made to be authentic, which I witness to be often a case in simracing as people tend to simulate not the actual mechanics but more the vibe of racing, and too difficult handling probably gets in a way for many. I don't understand that, and I think it shouldn't be so in simracing. But I guess there are two branches in simulation right now, and I have to accept that.

    I am working on Goodwood circuit, which is based on Lidar, so I am quite confident about optimal condition laptimes being correct. At least within half a second for sure.

    IRL very quick laps with 289 in Goodwood are under low 1'25 and extremely fast under 1'25. Me being not the fastest driver, but quite capable with these type of cars would expect to be able to do 1'25'5, but I did 1'19 yesterday. Car feels too stable right from beginning, laptimes is just a proof. On the other hand big block 427 official cars did 1'27 so far, perhaps I could do faster, but I doubt I would reach 1'25, and the big block should probably do something like 1'22 at Goodwood.

    Thank you for possibly not putting me into ignore list, I love Le Grand Circuit 1967 here in rFactor so much ! (I hope it helps against getting into ignore list :D)
     
  11. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    Hey Mantasisg,
    I'm a bit uncertain about what you're saying here. I didn't mod the car to be a 289 Cobra. They're meant to be similar to the field of Le Mans 1954, using only Le Grand Circuit as the test track. If your point is that a 289 Cobra should be faster than all of the '54 Le Mans field at Goodwood, you might be right. Probably the easiest way to check how accurate or not i've been with the modding is to try the dark green Jungle Cat cars, since they're meant to give the impression of a D-Type, and I know D-Types are regulars at Goodwood.

    Anyway, I'm not a car modder or physics expert. If there is something that doesn't add up to real-world results I won't be too surprised. Just wanted to get the AI into a good lap time bracket at Le Grand Circuit, and things might not play well elsewhere or with human drivers. Obviously Le Mans and Goodwood are quite different circuits, so it might be way off
     
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  12. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Thanks.

    Looks like I will have to check if I didn't mix up something. It is possible that I have something else somehow. Will have to reinvestigate what I actually have. D types shouldn't top 1'27 at goodwood. I have quite decent physics of D-Type in AC, I have some idea how it drives. Will be interesting to try "Jungle Cat". I have not noticed any jungle Cat yet, so perhaps I have something different from your mod, have to check, if it is so then I am sorry for disturbing you like that.

    Le mans is definitely a lot different track, top speed is so much more a decider there.
     
  13. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    No problem :)
    I'm keen to see more of your own progress on the Jag and Goodwood. I love Goodwood :)
    Would also love to see some D-Type in rF2 some day.
    Either way, I'm glad there are more people putting effort into historics :D
     
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  14. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I have to apologize, the mod I was criticizing is actually SCES_Cobra_FIA_289 car developed by Pumbaa...

    I don't know how I managed to mix things up so badly.

    Will install your car mods asap.

    As for Dtype, I have some of the model, Also I have started Etype low drag lightweight, some day I hope to bring them up. I also wish to bring a Ctype. Thats a lot of work, will not come soon, as I have troubles with some basic things, I might have to switch from blender to 3Ds max, but it is expensive and I don't even like it.
     
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  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Thanks for the mod woochoo :)

    I didn't expect that there were so many cars, and nice liveries makes cars very familiar, must be fun to run them all at lemans.

    As for physics they are ineed not very accurate too. But they are challenging and immersive and is fun. Overall dynamics seems quite correct to me as much as it is supposed to be for this mod, except turn in which is very vague. I definitely could tell some charracter of the Cat, and some of the Snake. What is way off is the tire grip. In dry it is basically like in 50percent wet track. And it shows for laptimes too, both Cobra and Dtype representations are ~1'40 in Goodwood, that means they are more than 10s too slow. If you catch a slide cars slides gently and easily like it was on snow. And they slides a lot. Jungle Cat was sliding a lot more, but somehow was slightly faster than Cobra representation. If they would drive 10-12s faster they would be more accurate, and much more dramatic, as edge of grip would rise higher, and eventually the drop would be the same.

    Old tires didn't have such poor grip, usually they could take less lateral force, less grip at lower slip but more slip, more load sensitivity maybe, you know that it was so because in old footage they don't slide all the time which would be a sign of very low grip, but they have very frequent small slips and slides, with occasional spectacular powerslides. Actually much like modern cars, only that modern cars are restricted to very low amount of slippage, has downforce and much higher cornering stiffness and lateral force peaks. If they slide for real they usually spin out, old tires simply accepts more slip before they are unrecoverable. So old tires didn't have so incredibly low grip, even tires from 30s which were on cars such as Mercedes W125, had respectable amount of grip, but their durability was super low (and was very narrow so load sensitivity was severe).

    Other than overall much too low grip, cars feels rather fine IMO.

    Except few things, but they might as well be related to much too low base grip. Jungle Cat turn in is terrible, as seen from videos it has very good turn in, but badly oversteering. Cummings car locks rear wheels under engine braking in weird way even at low RPM, but this also could be because much too low grip.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  16. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    Thanks for the feedback :)
    I'm glad you were able to get some impression of the real cars.
    I've run into my limit of things I can do with them, but If you'd ever like to tinker with them I'd be happy to have your help :)

    From memory the tyres are the ISI Cobra's street tyres, and I made the tyre mesh narrower. I didn't end up tweaking any values for them, because I don't know what I'm doing with that.
    And yes, it's possible I didn't quite get a good number for the Cummings' engine braking.

    That's some tasty news you've got about your other Jaguar projects :D
     
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  17. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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  18. KittX

    KittX Registered

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    @mantasisg

    Interesting that you brought the SCEC 289 Cobra to the discussion, as I found them while being too fast and perhaps too stable, to be more believable than ISI cobras in general, in the turn in, oversteer, throttle response, torque etc.
    The 427 as for now are just slide machines.

    And slightly off-topic, but how do you compare it to AC official Cobra? I find that one drive more like modern car, missing some lateral inertia, bodyroll etc. Also in the AC car you don't really need to blip throttle on downshift from my experience.
     
  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I agree, I have had same impression. However shear pace and speed in heavy stress situations were obviously off.

    I keep an idea that base grip in those cars is simply misjudged ? So the car feels on the limit the whole time, when I think it should only get when it gets very stressed. But who knows maybe there really was such tire back then, tires can be very different. If car slides massively almost whole time it is unbelievable for me too. I don't think that it is physically incorrect, but I just wouldn't understand such design of the tire. I'd better wear tire because of grippier compound without that much sliding, rather than wear it because of constant sliding.

    Maybe I don't understand something and they really chose to drive hardest possible tires that required to drive like a grandmother, but didn't require to change as much.

    I think AC official Cobra is one of the best cars there, I think I still prefer rF2 cobra, takes some getting used to, but after getting in tune with it it is really awesome. I think rF2 steering response to oversteering already is very sudden, in AC it is even more sudden, almost don't have to do steering into a slide youself, just let it spin 100percent on its own and catch it while modulating throttle. rF2 cobra is more sensitive and more about fine adjustements, also rF2 physics are deeper on its own. AC has that thing where you do feel having a good base grip and car really goes wild when you stress it, in rF2 it is always loose and that "getting wild" thing is less pronounced, so AC is better at that IMO. I also think that AC generally is too much in favor for sliding, sliding seems to always have enough friction to stay in control, it is very predictable, very rarely unexpected happens, grip is not changing very much, not too twitchy and not too loose with heavy slip. Cobra is more edgy car, but still the way AC is made, is that after a work, being tired and not completely focused, you still have the capacity to push car to the very limit of your own, I think it is not realistic.
     
  20. KittX

    KittX Registered

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    As I told, the AC AC Cobra (no punterino!) lacks some of the cruical detail, like proper simulation of transmission, so no blipping is required, also it lacks some inertia a lot, basically it gives an impression of sliding around it's imaginary axis.
    I also think the SCEC tires might behave a little more realistic than default 427 racing ones too, for earlier 260-289 ones with narrow tires I think it should be spot on:

     

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