“ are rfactor2 physics broken” video

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by GTClub_wajdi, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    Indeed the steel is off. Being stuck with the British measurement system derived from folks with either 8 or 12 fingers most of my materials properties memorization tables are on the Imperial scale. Wish we had gone metric 50 years ago.
     
  2. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    I think it was also mentioned in their roadmap that this was indeed a problem. This was after the FE events though, not after people already complained
     
  3. Joaquim Pereira

    Joaquim Pereira Registered

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    This comment is not either silly nor sarcastic. Your interpretation could be.
    S397 call this a game (expressions like "Exit game" are a give away). Treating it as a pure, core simulator, I can say that could also be silly.

    I once saw a comment about the "yaw simulator", rF2. That could be caused, alone, by that setting at default value.
    Watching the replays, I find drift angles acceptable. Inside the car, they seem much more dramatic.

    Is not enough to say some real racer think ACC is better, because others (F1 world champions) also like rF2 better.
    They are games, from "simulation" kind, and all have their virtues.
    I guess you don't expect a FPS to really kill people, it's just a simulator, ok?
     
  4. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Just ignore the rest of the discussion, sure. As stated there, the spreadsheets have a multiplier on that value, meaning there is some reason the file value doesn't match the raw material spec.

    Just because we don't know why, doesn't mean it's not based on some solid reasoning. You can't just drag it up to add to some list of flaws out of context.
     
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  5. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    For me reading these comments is kind of like playing rF2 itself, one minute you're thinking "rF2 physics are way off" but then the next minute you're thinking "nah rF2 is the best". It's a bit of a head scratcher and seeing as I'm no physicist I'm left to use man-logic, so bare with me.

    Just some observations and some questions: In rF2 when you're getting close to the absolute limit of what's possible (I'm talking the ABSOLUTE limit here - dozens of hours lapping one track making setup changes etc), you'll possibly find that a 'loose' setup is faster, because the car rotates much better and has higher absolute grip.

    I'm speaking in general terms here, but we know that IRL, very skilled drivers often use a loose setup because it's faster. But the rub is that it's harder to control. Now, IRL when have you ever seen a gentleman GT3 driver run a VERY lose setup, and then push the car EXTREMELY hard to the the absolute outer edge of what is thoreticaly possible? (genuine question).

    This is more directed to the people who are comparing rF2 with real life/real driving technique, but what makes you think that IRL if you ran a super lose (and frankly dangerous) setup, and pushed it to the complete limit of what is pysically possible, that it wouldn't look somewhat like the rF2 'alien' vids?

    I'm not really taking sides here, I've also had many complaints physics wise (I actually err on the side of rF2 is too slidey). But I just recently noticed that at nine-tenths (very close to the limit), rF2 steering inputs look quite realistic - It's only when drivng at ten-tenths (maximum limit) that driving can start looking unrealstic. My point is this: maybe it looks unrealistic, not because it is not possible to drive like that IRL, but simply because no one actually does drive like that IRL (due to a number of factors such as fear of death, wear and tear on car, lack of hundreds of hours practice on car/track combo and so on).

    Thanks for your patience, but to stress the point further, if you showed the best driver in the world the rF2 alien videos and gave them a loose setup and a brave pill and said 'drive as close to this style as you possibly can', would it look similar and would it be as fast? Possibly it would.
     
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  6. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    There is probably both this and that, so probably there should be some "meeting point" between 9/10 and 10/10 that make driving faster at 10/10 almost impossible, at least for a whole lap. We all have seen that turn in that track where you can throw the car and you can make it faster, but one thing is to push beyond the boundaries one turn, one thing is whole track. But with infinite practice time, and infinite setup evaluations, there will always be people able to drive "differently" from real life. Even if this exploit is cured, the lack of "noise" of digital data make the driving at the verge of limit more predictable for the driver, in real life all it is needed is few fallen leaves in the right place in the right condition , a fist of gravel, or like in my real life episode, a metal manhole when you took that turn just a tad too fast a tad too wide to send you flying in a spin or into a wall . Like John Denmann said, real drivers keep a "reserve" to overcome the unpredictabilities of real world.... when they don't... they crash, like young drivers that arrive in F1 and soon learn that their guts is more than their grip. :D
     
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  7. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    Actually you can with an update package but you have to block the workshop later so it doesn't overwrite it.
     
  8. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    I'm sorry but what the driver is doing is actually counter productive, I have much more grip with much smoother wheel inputs. Not sure what the problem is actually, he is ruining his tyres, losing speed and may even spin if he accelerates too early...really, very bad technique that doesn't grant any advantage.


    On a side note, Alonso's technique is maybe terrible but he managed to become F1 World Champion twice doing so...if you ask me, it doesn't seem so terrible after all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  9. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    I think we all understood the point but is he really gaining time doing so ? For what I've seen, when you do this are actually losing speed, using much smoother inputs allows you to keep much more speed.
     
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  10. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Yet he is still one of the top guys.
     
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  11. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    Maybe but the question is "is he one of the top guy because of this "technique" or because he is fast anyway" ?

    Or is he faster with this technique or just more confident and don't lose that much time ?

    Maybe doing this is not penalizing him enough, I can't say since I don't do this. As many others told here, nobody thinks there is no issue with rF2 but when you compare all major simulations right now, imho rF2 is by far the best one overall. yet, it has its issues, for sure.
     
  12. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    The problem is cars are allowing such technique to work to such a degree that it is still fast.
     
  13. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    upload_2021-1-4_16-55-29.png

    upload_2021-1-4_16-57-50.png

    @Slip_Angel This might be a very interesting read for you. It's possible this update will be in the next update (don't count on it though, since it depends on the feedback). It will be very interesting to see what this will change driving wise. I don't expect it to change the setup exploits as it's only mentioned that it reacts differently to tire temps.

    It is interesting to read that it holds pace better over the stints, which can be (just a speculation) because of the excessive sliding being removed. Or the tires get hot differently, so less thermal degradation (which is the main reason there is so much pace loss after a few laps)
     
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  14. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Now see this is kind of response i was hoping for. Not only it hints at new tires but also on fixing stuff.
    definitely great news.
     
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  15. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    On second thought, would this not make exploits even more OP ?
    Now tires degrade less , less sliding...all the more reasons to use exploits.

    This is not bad news at all btw , just the direction of fixing the issue seems counterintuitive IMO.
     
  16. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    We don't know what the fix is though. It's only said that the tire behaved differently to the temperatures. Nothing is said about what the actual fix is
     
  17. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    if by less sliding they mean tire will tolerate less slide i.e less slip angles etc more edgy then its cool.
     
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  18. romaFC

    romaFC Registered

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    oh look developer says they are working on fix for next update. ie we acknowledge there is problem with tire model.
    water is wet.
    this is why some of you need to relax.
    there is no perfect sim game for consumer market and there may never be one.
    iracing in on tire model version 11 by now.
    acc is no different.

    your favorite game isn't better than x game because of what you think or what pro drivers says.
     
  19. Kahel

    Kahel Registered

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    Top guys are fast anyway, at least from the vast majority perspectives... being 3s or 3.4s slower? Who care... most would call him an alien in both case. But from his perspective, being 0.4 off pace in the gt pro serie... he might as well not particiapte.

    So let's agree that skill and each own perspective aside... the best environment to isolate as much variables as possible... in not each and everyone feeling (and skills) but a situation where skill are so tight that's exploit can (or not) make the difference and reveal themselves...

    So do they reveal themselves?... here's some quote that prove nothing but put some context:

    Martin dyrlund: "Go into settings and override the steering angle to something like 200-240 degrees. Thats how it was driven in GT Pro. Nothing to do with replay quality to low. The Callaway needs to be driven like that to be fast..."

    Michi hoyer: "...you need to drift slide those car to be fast..."

    Risto Kappet: "...can't be fix (by forcing wheel range)... it should be fix physic wise since it almost true to every car in rf2"

    ...and so on... in short, some issues are so well known within the community that it's kind of strange to hear some of the comment in this forum... although, of course, it's always possible to spread misrepresentation within a group. Still seem like it worth the investigation at the very least... not to mention devs themselves acknowledge a lot of the issues... and physics being the strongest point of rf2... while understandable within context... still a very bad idea to let something this cool... left this much alone and rot himself for so long... and never let it evolve to the next step that it deserve... instead (arguably) barely tweak for at least 8 years now...

    Coming back to the competition aspect... If you're not doing that (using exploit), you're not competitive enough... It's that simple.
    Most people that use those tricks are not happy about it... but in the long run you just feel you have to...

    ...where from most people perspective, when you are already 2 to 4 second off pace, it became almost not even a factor...
     
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  20. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    I did some testing on C8R with ARB, so here is my rest of the setup (expect ARB because that I will be changing in for demonstation purpose )

    Pressure at lowest 140 kpa and soft compound tire

    Front camber : -4.0

    Rear camber : -2.6

    brake balance is 50.5:49.5 at 70 kgf(88%) pedal force

    Front suspension->>

    200 N/m

    Bump: 17

    Rebound: 6

    Packers : 1.9cm

    Ride height : 5.0 cm

    toe : -0.12 degrees

    Rear->>

    220 N/m

    Bump : 15

    Rebound : 8

    Packers : 0.5 cm

    Ride height: 7.0 cm

    Toe : + 0.12 degrees

    Wing : P6

    Preload : 120 Nm

    As you can see it is a fairly normal setup.

    My method to get accurate and consistent result is simple ->>

    * Arrive at entry at same speed and line

    *push as hard as car allows through rest of the corner

    2 different setting i tested for ARB
    A. I detached arb on both axel

    B. I used P4 value for both axel

    just a proof to show you guys how close I was on entry for both settings.

    Detached ARB entry->>

    p0 entry.jpg

    P4 ARB entry->>

    p4 entry.jpg

    As you can see at same reference point (the grid white line) I'm at exactly same speed with just 3 rpm difference and steering at very similar angle (before you say P4 arb entry has SLIGHTLY more steering angle BUT if you observer correctly I'm a touch wide on entry at P4 arb setting. Hell if anything this wide entry for P4 ARB should give more advantage but results will surprise you )

    Detached ARB video->>




    P4 ARB video ->>




    As you can see the I ran little bit wide with stiffer ARB....which is IMO very strange as it should give less camber , contact patch variation PLUS stiffer ARB values should give better platform for underbody aero. Yet it looks like detaching arb is better for aero corners as well. There is your proof, setups don't work realistically.
     
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