“ are rfactor2 physics broken” video

No he's loading the front and shifting weight forwards with the lift off. You don't correct oversteer by lifting off while turning into a high speed corner - especially not in a rear engine car
Rear weight bias, by the way, is balanced by larger rear tires - among other things..

 

Good observation, very correct.

 

with the s397 porsche cup car, to get the fastest laptime you HAVE TO let the car drift.
also when comparing the pro event sim pilots and real life pilots there is nothing alike. not saying competitive gaming would be 1:1 ever with real life, but the difference is just too big.
real life guys drive them as tought in the original skip barber training video: "smooth is fast". even tough the technically much more advanced cars make them to be little bit more aggressive in their style of driving, but the main idea is still present.

to get he the best laptimes in rf2 with that car, its drift drift drift. be very active, almost spastic with the steering wheel (and pedals too, but not to same extent).
that is with the low tire pressures mostly that everybody exploits. with the default pressures the driving starts to resemble more of the old school "smooth is fast" again, but it basically forces you to race them only offline to have a simulation experience since its so much slower that way.

An example: recently there was rfro server with the pcup in loch drummond. driving smooth, i did, 1.21.xx. "drifting" (constanly between understeer and oversteer) around the track i did 01:19.032 thats two seconds difference in such a short track. i was not the fastest at all, but not the slowest either (8th out of 42, 01:17.098 being the alien laptime). and that it self doesnt really matter to me, but the fact that i had to "game" a sim to get at least somewhat decent laptime does.

Even tough ISI's original tire model wasnt perfect, and was more to the iracings "surgical driving style required" side of spectrum, it required more of the "smooth is fast" ideology.
these are in the other end of the spectrum, and allow way too much mistakes (and bad driving) and it leaves only one option to make a car challenging to the driver, ie separate slow guys from fast guys.
and that is to drift in the edge of grip and have so quick hand movements it looks like 4 hands on the wheel simultaneoysly. or the least, do the "jimmer wiggle" with the wheel while driving (drifting).

And like suggested in this thread earlier: dont use the exploits, drive offline. its a good advice, if you want to have full simulation experience, but is that really what race sim is supposed to be like in 2021?
I dont expect anyone from s397 to admit that there is a problem. also i dont expect forum members here to agree with me.
but sadly this game is simulation only in offline mode for me. i do race online, but i dont think of it as simulating anything really, just playing a driving game online.

Not being a hater here, really not. i love everything else s397 has done with the game. vr implementation, and really make it work well, not just rush it like some unmentioned flightsim.
the tracks look amazing, and run superbly well. tons of stuff that i praise s397 for. but in the end, this is a racing sim after all. physics should be #1 concern, no matter how much work there is to be done elsewhere.

 

Regarding "smooth is fast". What is smooth, really, and what's the proper amount of smoothness? I think everyone has a different conception of it, which leads to different assumptions and expectations on how cars should handle.

I'd say, for example, that this is fairly smooth but (obviously) maximum attack.

 

No, you don't.
I did a Porsche Supercup series. I can show you.
First of all, dont mistake rotation for drifting. Have a look at the other thread if you wanna know more.

[42mins53s]()

The guy you see on that onboard *overtook me at the start* (i thought I had qualified behind him but turns out I qualified first), and drove like you say. He is actually known for driving like this, its his style. ( Yes, drivers are allowed to have their own styles... theres no "correct" or "normal" style, as some in this thread seem to believe.) On the video above, in the timestamp I linked, you can see that showing later in the race. I won the race (im the car in front) because I could keep up with while while driving a lot smoother, while he started losing the rear of the car a few laps in, and eventually nearly spun, giving me the first place. I think he also swapped tires on the pitstop, I didn't.
I think you can see clearly im not drifting in front of him...

[48mins36sec]()

here you can see third place, right behind the guy in the first link. Is he drifting? no. Is he keeping up with the guy in front? yes.

[33min41s]()

Here you can see third place, following me before I took first place. is there some sliding going on here and there? sure. But its only really noticeable when I let it slide more than I want to. And nothing like drifting.

I was sure this video had an onboard of me aswel, but looks like it doesnt. You can try finding any one drifting constantly and on purpose in the video tho. Spoiler: you wont find anyone. I have the replays, but rf2 wont detect them... maybe its because I dont have the vmod anymore, but if any of you knows how to make it work, I would very much like to see this replay again

[38mins59s]()
Its not onboard, but its a short hood cam, of the last round of that cup. Once again, I'm not drifting (thats me). Once again, I won that race, on tires mostly (while keeping the pace of the others in front)

(of course, maybe everyone on that series is slow... lol)

Oh man i just noticed it deleted the time stamps... bare with me, this is gonna take a while lol
EDIT: So, since time stams get deleted by auto youtube thingy, skip to the timestamp I have in brackets before each video)

Regarding the "full physics simulation" that some people seem to want: this is a RACING simulator, and there are a lot more aspects to racing than physics. If you want a pure, 1 to 1 simulation of physics, go play BeamNG. Its actually pretty great.

 

@Bruno Gil you're answering a statement that you have to drift the car to set the fastest time. You can't just say "no".

First, how much drifting is drifting? This isn't an on/off switch. I'm sure different people see the same amount of sliding in different ways, and many not-so-fast drivers probably have very little sliding to their detriment, and immediately panic if the car gets more sideways. We all know some sliding is of course necessary, but how much you need, and how much is too much, aren't simple answers (even in a hotlap scenario) and won't be seen the same by all.

Second, you're saying no to 'fastest time' then giving many examples of drivers in a race benefiting from not sliding. That doesn't say anything about a single lap. Even though you qualified on pole, that doesn't mean it's necessarily the fastest that's possible.

There are so many unknowns and variables at play here, definitive statements (either way) are really hard to make.

 

Yes it is very complex. One interesting thing about "how much drifting is drifting" I have noticed through the years of simracing. I am sure everybody noticed it, but I wonder if everybody thought about it. Same amount of drift, slide, at same speed, at same angle can and will be perceived very differently based on feel. Sliding that we can assume is "hard" will feel like it is big drift even at small amounts, when sliding that could be assumed as "easy" goes the opposite way, obviously. The difference per how dramatic is perception and actual how dramatic actual drift is can be best seen through replays, while still remembering how you drove the car. Edgy car will simply not going to be sliding at angles as big, and as much as more blunt car, but yet have similar levels of intensity in feel when driving.

 

After driving in RF2 i feel that there are 3 phases of driving ->>

1. Where you know you are about to slide (either understeer or oversteer).
This i believe to be near to peak or actually peak grip, and i believe this is how it would be IRL to achieve peak performance. **Not all situations BUT majority of corners**

2.Where you feel car is in 4 wheel drift or in oversteer condition you feel rotation by visual BUT you don't need opposite lock and you can probably still put more throttle.
I don't believe this will get most out of tires BUT on some corners and situation it will be better options than NO.1
Example where this technique will work->>

*zandvroot last corner

*Last corner before the straight on Nordschelifie

*T3 barcelona

*Last corner at monza

Basically long corners where are cornering for long period

3. This is where you need to do actual driving corrections like backing off power / feathering throttle and most importantly you now need some sort of opposite steering lock.

Now where IMO problem is in RF2 is phase NO.2, it is ->>

A) easy to achieve
B) easy to maintain
NO.2 phase before actually needing to correct input (NO.3 phase) is tad bit to long hence drop off is much more progressive to later phases.

This is the reason why even low wing is very drivable because you get so much time before you lose the car.

Basically a fix would be if phase 3 hits little bit sooner and phase 2 made tricky to achieve.

**ALSO note that i don't use TC , so this is my raw driving observation without any filters**


**Talking mostly about GT cars and probably LMP2 as well**

 

I think you can make it in a image that is easier to understand:
You run along a hill, the side where you start is under grip thresold, the top of the hill is grip thresold, the other side is beyond grip thresold.
You want to run all the time on the top of the hill, but from time to time you fall a little left or a little right of it. If you go too far on the "beyond" slope, you will lose control. The hill is tall, low, wide or narrow depending a lot of factors , but on a general note, the taller the hill is, more pronounced is the "beyond" slope, and narrower is the top.

 

This doesn't mean that you are not sliding somewhat/somehow/somewhere, in the end, what does it matter is that you are in control of the car at any time. To have control, you must be gripping enough, enough is not necessarily the maximum available, enough is just enough.

 

There are a lot of instances where you can momentarily lose control, especially if you know that it will come back immediately after, for example, there are turns that due their elevation changes or geometry, you can decide to put the car in the right path, let is go through the uncontrolled segment, and be prepared for the regaining of control. In the end is always a balancing act.

 

S397 needs to recruit all these experts and engineers in physics/aerodynamics. It's incredible to have a pool of professionals on this forum!

 

Of course if one posts and contributes in forum discussions that is automatically a shame. Thank you for your wise contribution. If we only knew before that it is stupid and wastful to try to communicate, or in other words to act as a community.

 

Even with the camaro and even when changing caster to the extreme, I have nothing, I don't feel it at all, nothing.

I know for sure some ppl have it with Fanatec DD but with Simucube 2, either I don't have the right setting, either the effect is so small that you don't feel it.

There is a reason why rFactor 2 or even iRacing have sliders for some effects (actually, config files) : not all hardware brands are the same and translate direct input the same way !

 

In the early days of RF2, me and almost everyone coming from RF1, spent so much time messing with those config files. But at some point, I've decided to stop and revert to defaults, now all I modify is min torque and multiplier. I have a G27, so no special need there, but, I can say, that depending the mod and the right balance to avoid excessive clippings, even a weak G27 can make you feel all the variations. The amount of weight that you can feel on the steering is largely car/track/and setup dependant, but is definitely there. If you don't feel it, try a different config file from those provided with RF2 if there is not one expressely made for your wheel.

 

I don't feel it in ACC...rFactor 2 I clearly feel them (maybe too much).

 

Clearly you cannot comprehend the subject, why not take a leave ?
This is out of your league, don't even bother.

 

between knowing and believing there is a kingdom...medite!

 

Beyond the irony, you don't have to be extremely knowledgeable in anything to compare figures with each other, it just so happens that I have an engineering background but clearly not in aeronautics or automotive physics, a background that nevertheless allows me to have learned how to scientifically demonstrate a theory for example...

But even without this background that you don't care about, there is still simple common sense and "quick comparison" with the real world or simulations between them, without being a physics guru you can still have pseudo-scientific approaches to determine the true from the false, such as for example the famous "Ockham's razor" which finally consists in favoring the hypothesis that is the least costly in arguments that are impossible to demonstrate.

Mocking each other doesn't really do more than making mistakes in our arguments and our understanding of things, it is true that these are ultra complicated subjects that only a few people on earth really master (and still, not sure that one person understands absolutely everything about these subjects) but we can all agree that for example a car that slides at 50 km/h shouldn't slide 200m as in iRacing, right?

Then I'll also agree that determining that a simulation has better physics than another just on the basis of our opinions is far-fetched, absolutely far-fetched.

 

I disagree with @Slip_Angel most of the time but at least he explains his point of view and his goal is to move things forward, so I respect him. On your side, apart from taking everyone down and laying pearls of wisdom, what can you bring to the subject?