“ are rfactor2 physics broken” video

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by GTClub_wajdi, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    We have opinions from "real pilots" in all the games, even some have found a way to say that iRacing was realistic, so their opinion is not basically a proof. not to mention those who give an opinion because they are under contract?

    So certainly, ACC has a physics that I find more than good, but from there to say that it surpasses the others, it clearly remains to be demonstrated, again it is only an opinion, not a proven fact.
     
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  2. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    To be perfectly clear, at no time did I consider this rear anti-roll bar issue to be a problem because the behavior observed is clearly the one that should be observed, the reactions I could read here just came from a misunderstanding of the physics regarding this aspect of a setup.

    For those who are not convinced, there is a video by Aristotelis Vasilakos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2P9GUUfFXhq-hiAxC1FTPQ) that explains perfectly the physics of vehicles, I especially liked his video on the differential.

    On the other hand on the slipping of the tires, we must admit that there is something abnormal...not obvious, nothing really crazy but still something wrong, we are not punished enough when we abuse. I emptied a full tank of fuel (well, 80 liters actually) on the Nurburgring in the Corvette CR8 and I had more than 85% of the tire left while I had the SOFT tires...not sure if it makes sense.
     
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  3. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    This is the reason why I proposed a more scientific approach that would aim to prove or disprove the hypotheses evoked here, but I realized that in order to do so, sooner or later we would have to agree on the expected result, which we would have to obtain...and reading each other's arguments, I tell myself that even then, there will be no consensus.

    The only thing I can do at my humble level is to verify that the known laws of physics are not completely disregarded in rF2, so I will rely on the books that refer to them, such as the one by Milliken & Milliken for example.

    Clearly, this discussion leads nowhere and ends up like all the others: provocation, denigration, etc...
     
  4. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    I agree with you, but if the scientific approach proves that there is a bug (or there isn't), S397 will have data to work with. And from my point of view this is more important that our opinions.
     
  5. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    "Because you don't think the same as I do you're an rf2 fanboy and a yes man to Marcel and the devs. It's broken END OF."

    That's all I've got from this tbh.
     
  6. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    There are many reasons why physics discussions doesn't lead into clear direction.

    Those are few of the reasons:

    Much too different, incredibly different perceptions of reality, and following that - expectations. Ignorance, egoism and arrogance. Lack of clarity in expressions - seems like we can't even point a difference of some single type cars by sS397 and whole physics engine by ISI, which is ridiculous.

    This does enormous damage for the future of simulation, at least in consumer market for sure. Developers income is a physics parameter too. If people can not agree even on some fundamentals and develop reasonably same way directed view on realism and ability to talk about physics of vehicle dynamics using same language (which should not be very difficult), then there is a threat of whole thing degrade to some very mediocore level.

    But just trying, even if failing is still better than just letting wind to blow in our heads. Intelligence in simracing will prevail !
     
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  7. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    It's true that pro drivers opinions about handling vary a lot, but I it's worth listening to people who race the same exact cars IRL and in a sim. I'd say it's even more important to have such feedback then detailed data from manufacturer when tuning handling. Often physics devs need to fudge values, because even using real data there are big issues with a simulated car's handling.
    Do you have any proof iRacing is less realistic than rf2? Except tire model there's noting inherently bad about iRacing physics and even for tire model there's no consensus(for some cars it's ok for others it's bad). Real drivers say e.g. Skip Barber, Mazda MX-5 cup and Porsche 911 Cup Car(excluding tires) are very realistic.
    Yes paid "consultants"/sponsored drivers were for pCars 2, iRacing and I think even rF2 (Rudy van Buren). But I don't know of any such drivers for AC or ACC.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  8. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    It's probably a technical mistake but I don't differentiate the physics of the simulator from the tire model, I mix the two in what I call "the physics of the game". So when I talk about physics in iRacing, I'm talking about tires that are not correct in case of a slip (too much, as if they suddenly had no grip, you go from 100% to 0% in 1/1000s, easy to manage, you can imagine).

    What I was also saying is that I have read real drivers (or seen in the case of Lando Norris, Max Verstappen, Nicky Thiim, etc ...) say that this or that simulation was better than another according to them, I suspect that this is also the case for GT3 drivers ex BlancPain and probably still the case for others but at no time we have any idea of their hardware, their configuration (FFB for example), nothing ... so what credibility to give to such statements? We have all seen Norris uninstall rFactor 2 live complaining about je ne sais quoi while he doesn't hesitate to play iRacing, it will be hard to explain to me that the physics in iRacing is superior to that of rFactor 2 for example, just on the tires there is no debate possible in my opinion...yet, Norris is an F1 driver, so he probably knows a lot about it, don't you think?

    So yes, you can listen to them and their opinion is probably interesting but when you read a so-called "simulation expert on iRacing" testing rFactor 2 and say after 2 minutes "and that's what you call a simulation" (a French streamer whose name I completely forgot but it's useless anyway) while he's been driving on iracing for years, you can imagine that opinions are always biased one way or another. And you can read or hear exactly the opposite elsewhere, so in terms of credibility, I think I trust Trump more when he talks about humility and honesty.

    I prefer people like Aristotelis (Vasilikos) who don't pretend anything and who assume that ALL simulations deserve respect, there are people who have worked very hard to build them and it's not an easy task. He has spent a lot of time with the technical teams of the real GT3 teams to understand and represent the physics of these cars as accurately as possible and I think the result is very good (but again, who am I to know?). In any case, I can't see anything that seems to me completely crazy like the iRacing tires in ACC.
     
  9. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    While I know what you mean it's not technically correct statement either. It's too vague. In which cars? On cold or hot tires? etc. You guys demand for absolute proof for rf2 flaws, but again do you have proof for that? Or just repeat what other simracers say? I assume the statement "go from 100% to 0% in 1/1000s" is just your hyperbole to illustrate the issue. But in general do you have access to any measurements to back up the issue is real? On iRacing forums there are 50 page threads where members argue about such things, where fanboys keep defending iRacing tire model and marginalise issues (sounds familiar?) Now I'm not really defending iRacing and actually generally agree the issue exists(even real racers said that), but just wanted to show that users/fanboys can question almost any criticism when it comes to physics (and not only that) when they see their favourite sim is under attack.

    Edit:
    After virtual LM24 he said rF2 is little bit more realistic than iRacing, but he prefers iRacing.
    But I believe he didn't drove the same car IRL as in this event. But Juan Pablo Montoya(also former F1 driver) did and I think someone here said that he said you need to drive differently in rf2.
    Tire simulation is of course crucial part of sim's physics.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  10. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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  11. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Some openly say about what hardware they use. Including Norris and Thiim. But yeah even with best DD wheel and pedals you can't reproduce the real feedback. It's limited by drivers, Direct Input API, and of course lack of G forces etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  12. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    This is hyperbole, of course, but the general idea is there: you clearly lose grip too quickly in iRacing. I don't know what people are saying on their forum since I've stopped reading it, as you say there are a lot of "fanboys" who only play iRacing and have no idea what's going on elsewhere, let alone in a real car, so there's no point in discussing it with them.

    I have no "proof" for the good and simple reason that useful data does not exist in telemetry, so only "common sense" is left to assess the situation. I have 2 accounts with ALL Road content (cars and circuits) and both accounts are about 4000 from iRating, it is hard to assume that I don't know iRacing and the behavior of the vehicles. All are not equal, it seems that the GT4 and the Skip barber for example (so the cars with the new damage model) are less affected by this phenomenon, which could lead to believe that there is a bug in the old model but once again, with the impossibility to obtain useful telemetry data, I am forced to talk about my driving experience (more than 1. 5 million kilometers in a car, about 250,000 in a motorcycle and almost nothing in a truck), as a driver (well ok...not much, I just did a few laps of Spa in an Audi R8 LMS, if not a BMW i8 but still another level of vehicle) and as a motorsports lover in general (you only have to see the GT3 racing videos for example to realize that none of them behave like those in iRacing, a simple observation allows you to affirm it). The best example of abusive sliding is when two vehicles touch each other: at least one of them, if not both, literally loses control and slides for hundreds of meters most of the time...which never happens in reality, not at this extreme point.

    After all, it's only common sense, not a proof since they are not available (probably for good reason? Curious to block this information even in pure telemetry, the tire temperature for example is only available in a posteriori telemetry, not in live telemetry).

    Anyway, I'm talking about MY experience on the subject, not about what others say, I'm well enough placed to know what I feel I'm driving in iRacing, I'm even the best placed person in the world after all.


    About Norris or more generally about the people who drive in iRacing, there is the phenomenon of habit that comes into play, I am part of a team of SimRacers on iRacing and they don't want to "recognize" the problem in iRacing either (although it's starting to come, slowly), the fact that iRacing is the one and only one to offer a real competitive mode finally cancels its flaws. ...if rFactor 2 manages to consolidate its competitive mode, I think a good part of iRacing players will at least go and see how it goes (but I also know that there's going to be some bad faith, starting every time this kind of situation occurs).
     
  13. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    Even worse : even with best possible hardware (which is my case I think, or close to best possible) if badly set up, you can't feel what the game is providing correctly, so you dislike it.
     
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  14. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    BTW:I had a typo: It should be “Some openly say...” .
    Generally it’s quite possible, but for most consumers wheels there’s not much you can adjust. With higher end wheels like DD owners often use profiles and are usually aware wheel setup is important and do some experimentation, especially when something is off. But FFB is so subjective that for some users a given profile is perfect while for others it’s rubbish. I like when game has little FFB settings, most things come directly from physics engine and you still have a good feel what a car is doing. I think that’s the case with rF2(although there are some FFB settings in .json file).
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  15. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I am with you. I understand the argument made by avenger82 and it is actually really poignant to say the least, how some people here are ready to discard without real proof some simulations but others demand extensive proof.

    Sometimes we shouldn't really compare to real life footage because we don't really have all the information about their setups, wich can go a long way to make a car seem like it drives one way different to a simulation, and I've been guilty of that, even more knowing that setups aren't 1:1 to the real thing so even if it would not correspond in term of numbers maybe the simulation will have inside it's own rules the way to make it behave simillar to that.

    Altough, certain things I believe are just possible to discern without going really deeply and extensive testing, that part of the process should actually be used to pinpoint especifically where the problem lies, not if there is a problem. If it was just like that than all simulations would be seen the same way and not really any on the market would be prefered to another, because in the end it's more the users that determine what's more realistic and it will come mostly from people wich aren't really masters on physics. I do believe certain things can be perceived correctly as flaws even without propper background, maybe they can't be explained by them as they should.
     
  16. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Totally, and why I actually believe FFB can be more important than physics, helping you feel a simulation is better than another, provided that one isn't a total arcade or too simplistic. Saying that, generally the more realistic simulation can be dialed in to achieve better FFB than the other, but this isn't always the case.
     
  17. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Just made a video with the Norma LMP3. I finished a race with the AI and went for some "exploitative driving". The car setup is default apart from tyre pressures, wich I actually raised. Not giving any comments, but I'd like to know what some of you think, if I should be able to hold some of those slides as I did, even with a rubbered road. Adding that when starting the practice session the car will be much more difficult to hold a slide, expectadly, but should I be able to hold a LMP3 even with rubbered road so easily? Some sims wouldn't let me, so I don't know.

    Don't watch fullscreen, bad quality, better to watch extended mode in youtube.
     
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  18. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    And that’s basically my point that to users who talk about flaws like setup “hacks”( such that common sense tells should never work like that IRL) defenders of a sim often respond: provide absolute proof otherwise it’s just plausible flaw and maybe not even in physics engine, but only some cars’ data. While it’s strictly valid claim it’s also easy way to dismiss such issues. It’s possible it’d be only mod issue and not fundamental flaw - or even no issue at all - but that doesn’t mean devs should ignore them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  19. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I also think the sound of Rfactor 2 leads us to believe the tyres sometimes are sliding when they are not, not enough to produce noise. Maybe that's a devlopment decision to make it easier to understand the cars limits. I don't like the slide sounds generally to be honest.
     
  20. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I see that you are able to sustain those slides mostly when you are able to overheat rear tires (red color), the more you slide, the more they heat, less grip they can express, easier is to keep sliding.
     
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