“ are rfactor2 physics broken” video

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by GTClub_wajdi, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    A broken clock say the correct time twice a day. It's 12 pages that we acknowledge that there are SOME issue here and there, but you say there are TONS of bugs, yet you failed to show us a single proof that is barely scientifically solid, no telemetry, ne repeteability, no data, no graphs, no statistical analysis of values, nada.
    I'm quite amazed that you say you can lap almost as fast as aliens (without exploiting) yet in other posts you dismiss FFB as something to fool simple people, that is unnecessary to understand vehicle dynamics, or the fact you fail to understand that going wide in a turn is much more important that entry speed/exit speed in that same turn.
     
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  2. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    If you acknowledge the issues why do i need the proof ? lol.

    If you need scientific data , and telemetry etc for such obvious flaws then i can't help. Not to mention everyone at top uses them. It literally couldn't be any clearer than this.

    Better yet see for yourself as you seem to not trust anything but your opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
  3. SoloWingX

    SoloWingX Registered

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    Look, something does not add up regarding these setup changes. Whoever is right, do not expect scientific evidence from a user, as well as you do not provide scientific evidence about the issue not being an issue. The goal of both parties should be to make Studio 397 give a statement about it, not argue with one another. So far they have been silent, which tells a lot by itself.

    And I repeat to emphasize, all of us posting here probably want rF2 to improve...

    To give my opinion as a mostly offline racer, I could not care less about exploits I am not going to use, however I understand why it's important in the context of the recent focus on the competition system and the need to use these exploits to be competitive, as it is being done at he moment in leagues. And honestly, all of this talk without an acknowledgement from Studio 397 just makes feel like it's not even worth for me to try the new competition system. My preferences would be if the developers actually worked on AI (terrible even on paid content) and kept their premium content updated to the latest standard visually.
     
  4. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    How do you prove that something doesn't exist exactly ? It is up to the one who says there is a problem to show an evidence of the problem. It is like proving that god doesn't exist, you won't be able to, it is up to those who believe in god to prove it exists.

    I have nothing against you nor @Slip_Angel but like others I still fail to find a proof that those "exploits", if they really exist, are making you faster. All we have is a fast driver doing a very strange move without issue but is he really gaining time ? It's far from obvious. There may be an issue here, even an exploit but is it making you faster ? Question is simple, genuine and needs proofs, clues, something, not just "he is doing this, I'm sure it is impossible RL (which isn't actually, c.f. Alonso's cornering technique making him F1 World Champion twice, isn't it a proof ?) so it is an exploit, game is flawed" because it is NOT a proof, it is only an opinion.

    Later @Slip_Angel shown us video in which he was CERTAIN that lowering ARB should have made him lose grip thus time...this is the exact opposite actually, what he is showing is us is normal or "not abnormal" to be more accurate. And as @Lazza or @Comante said, a single corner out of nothing can't be a proof, there is nothing blatant, nothing obvious here...

    There are surely bugs, it is the core nature of any application...but are there really bugs that can be exploited easily to make you faster ? I fail to see one so far but i don't claim there is none.


    EDIT : let me show you what I mean. Last week I did a test with the new Dallara iR-01 in iRacing and was frustrated because of the incredible loss of grip sometimes, which I find extremely unnatural so I posted a video, here it is :




    Here you see me willingly missing my breaking first corner or Nurburgring. My right front tyre blocks completely, which may be correct BUT even when I released 100% of the brake, the wheel doesn't grip again, nothing, not moving at all.

    My friend told me that my breaking was bad (yeah indeed, missed the point if you ask me) so it was normal my tyre blocked...of course but why doesn't it grip again when no constraint was on the wheel anymore ? Here he said that it was because of the mass transfer, the wheel wasn't touching the track anymore, which could be true, hard to say on this video.

    Hopefully, I always activate telemetry so I checked and here is what I got :

    upload_2021-1-7_12-46-23.png

    IMHO, if the car didn't touch the track somewhere, it is at the red arrow mark, it is a 2 cm amplitude here, I don't think the wheel was so high that even a 2 cm amplitude that quick didn't make the wheel touch the track again, especially since the overall roll wasn't that high, even quite smooth. Even if the wheel only touched the track a single time when breaks were release, why doesn't it move at all ?

    But yeah, it could be because the tyre didn't touch the track....why not ?

    He accepted the fact that slip was too high in iRacing (but he still enjoys iRacing and he is right, the most important is to have fun, period).

    He also told me I was biased because I play rFactor 2 and it is "too grippy"...so I did a imple test, the one I explained earlier in this thread, with GT3 car on the same track but in 3 different games (4 actually but lost telemetry of the last one) : iRacing, rFactor 2 and ACC. Here are the G-G graph for each case (lap time where almost the same, not very fast but comparable) :

    iRacing :

    upload_2021-1-7_12-52-25.png


    rFactor 2 :

    upload_2021-1-7_12-52-49.png


    ACC :

    upload_2021-1-7_12-53-0.png


    As you can surely see, both 3 games have similar grip characteristics (track is Imola), between 2.3 and 2.5 lateral G, same breaking capabilities (I was NOT using ABS to make sure the limit was the grip) and of course same acceleration too. Many ppl think grip is better in rFactor 2 but I think it is the overall "feeling" in the game that makes us think we have more grip, we "feel" the car much better than in other sims so we are more confident. It is just my opinion, can't really prove it.

    Maybe this is NOT a proof, maybe it is flawed but at least it is a start, it is something my friend wasn't able to deny, the main difference between iRacing and rFactor 2 isn't the grip loss, it is the grip recovery : in iRacing it is MUCH harder to recover grip than in rFactor 2, I'm pretty sure iRacing is over slippery, maybe rFactor 2 isn't enough, can't say since I don't have real tyres data.

    My point is with proof, people can follow you but when you present only flawed evidences based on your impressions, this can't work.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
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  5. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Well, when someone make a claim, the PROOF is on his shoulder, it is not responsibility of no one to DISPROVE the claim.
    If you come here telling earth is flat, is not up to me to show otherwise.
    About the issue in this topic we all agree that the "hypersteering/ hyperundersteering" hack take advantage of a limit of the engine.
    All the other "BUGS" come from the assumption of Slip Angel, that a little body roll should break the aero effect ,sending the car all over the place. It is something like 11 pages that people tell him that this is not the case probably, he failed to determine this bug, anectodal poor video without telemetry, tire temperature, ecc. are not proof. 11 pages of people telling him that softer settings HAVE more grip have fallen in deaf ears. He is completely unable to put his "FACT" in check. Yet we are the fanboys and he is our savior.
     
  6. SoloWingX

    SoloWingX Registered

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    @Comante @Yzangard I honestly didn't watch Slip Angel's videos nor tried any exploits, I still refer to Ermin's video, as well as feedback given by eSport racers and IRL racers commenting on rF2. And why would anyone expect "proof"? We are on support forums to give feedback. It's not our job to know how their physics engine works. Some discrepancies, unexpected results were found, feedback was given, developers should respond if we are wrong, if it's a known issue planned/unplanned to be solved, if it's something new they should check, etc. Not let vocal critics as well as protectors argue for 10 pages.
     
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  7. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Yes i'm wrong , RF2 setups are totally realistic. even IRL every team is detaching ARB , running leman aero setup and put on minimum camber.........yep soo much realistic. you need proof ? go ask alien about their setup and see what they are doing to be fast.
    how is this logical that in RF2 aliens are inducing understeer via mechanical setup and then running low wing, so you telling me that by bringing the grip level DOWN the car is faster ?? every single circuit ??
    Do you need fact check on this ?? holy hell this is bad.

    simple physics lesson->>

    you cannot regain the loss of aero by inducing mechanical understeer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    "Fix your game!"
    "What's wrong with it?"

    Is this not the interaction here?

    If devs must surely know the issue, and everyone else knows the issue, why the thread?

    @GTClub_wajdi Why the thread?
     
  9. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    because these exploits are present for YEARS and stll no fix from devs, its about time they fix this mess of a physics.
     
  10. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    I agree with you here and overall there is a lack of communication from devs, this is our point actually : yes there are known issues and everybody admit it is an issue because there were proofs, not just assumptions.
     
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  11. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Still you fail to listen or to understand what is told to you. You scream so loud that you can only hear your own voice.
    Trying to interact with you is a waste of time.

    What it seem to me is that you take all the setup changes "exploiters" use, and think that individually their behaviour is wrong, while, more probably, is only when they all add up together that you can really exploit simulation limits.
    Your crusade against ARB is proof of that, but you don't listen.
     
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  12. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    Since there is at least an issue with tyres (pressure for example) devs are admitting there is something wrong so it can provoke some abnormal behavior with some settings, yeah...and devs admitted it I think. Let them fix this tyre pressure issue and then maybe this exploit won't be possible anymore. Can't say.
     
  13. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    I literally tried it few minutes ago on another GTE car (RSR) i detached the rear arb and ran low wing and it was fine especially with TC ON.
    same thing i tried on ACC with multiple cars and i get very realistic results as i spun out quite quickly i.e aero downforce CANNOT be compansated with detached ARB. this is what im telling you.

    in simple terms
    total grip = aero grip+ mechanical grip

    mechanical grip=/= aero grip you need BOTH to generate grip and be fast.
     
  14. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    tire pressure isn't even than unrealistic. what i more bigger issues is how tire react to high temperature and high slip angle i.e more steering input and oversteer.
    the tire are unrealistically grippy on bad driving techniques and bad setup.
     
  15. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    NO hate against RF2 , despite how focused ACC was on GT3 RF2 still has better quality to beat them. these issues are holding it back BIG time.
     
  16. Paul Jeffrey

    Paul Jeffrey Administrator Staff Member

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    Hi everyone,

    Thank you for the many pages of detailed discussions here - certainly some interesting information has been extracted from this thread and fed into our knowledge base on this highlighted topic.

    Please be assured that we understand the intention of the community to highlight the points you have collectively raised within this thread, and we are taking them under consideration to understand how this might impact the simulation and what can be done around this.

    Many thanks
     
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  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Really? This thread?

    Here we go...
     
  18. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    I trust you but are you sure it was exactly the same setup and same conditions, track state, et cetera ? In ACC there are bump stops, if I remember well rFactor 2's GT3 cars don't have them (or not all cars have them) that prevent chassis roll as well. Is ride height the same ? Pitch ? Pressure ? Tyre temp ? etc...

    This is what we are trying to check you know, there might be a real problem but without repeatable experiment, how can we be sure that the difference isn't elsewhere ?

    Asking because last time I checked, ACC and rFactor 2 were VERY close, kudos to Aris from Kunos for his amasing job, ACC's physics are impressive, on par with rFactor 2 ones imho (but limited to GT cars).
     
  19. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    What do you mean ?
     
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  20. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    i tried to keep it as close as possible. results of low wing are very consistant in ACC cars. they don't go well with low wing unless you counter that somehow. but you generally have to lose cornering speed in the process (understerry setup).
    in rf2 low wing is countered by running very stiff front mechanical setup which doesn't cost them understeer as much as you would expect.
     

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